Canon XH-A1 Cineform & DVFilmmaker Workflow at DVinfo.net

Devon Lyon · November 5th, 2006, 05:35 PM

OK, wonder if anyone can very simply walk me through the workflow on using Cineform and DVFilmmaker to turn 1080 60i HDV footage shot on the Canon XH-A1 camera into good 24P (I edit in Premier Pro 2.0 on a good PC)? For those who are currently using the Canon XL-H1 I imagine it would be the same.

I already own Cineform Aspect HD and am waiting on the camera which I should get on Monday or Tuesday and want a straight forward workflow.

I keep reading that I should shoot in 1080 60i (and NOT Canon's 24f). I also keep reading the DVFilmmaker is a high quality way to de-interlace without much loss in resolution. Thanks for any step-by-step workflow.

David Newman · November 5th, 2006, 06:31 PM

I would prefer to shoot in 24F rather than 60i and post deinterlace. The post processing can never fully restore the 24p cadence. You may have a slight resolution edge (not guaranteed) but will always introduce some ghosting and motion artifacts as a result of the 60i to 24p conversion. Canon 24F mode is not too much of compromise for a nice 24p image.

Pete Bauer · November 5th, 2006, 06:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Devon Lyon

I keep reading that I should shoot in 1080 60i (and NOT Canon's 24f).

Not sure where you're reading that, but I think very few people who actually shoot with the XL H1 (and now the XH cameras) would agree. IMO, David was actually being quite diplomatic with his comments.

This is one of those topics that has been beaten to death and then beat some more. If one wants to shoot 60i and de-interlace, nobody's stopping anyone. It's just the hard way and at best is not going to give any better results. The only 60i-24p I do is for slow-mo. Otherwise, if I want 24fps, I shoot 24F. Done.

Devon Lyon · November 5th, 2006, 07:34 PM

I do appreciate the polite nature of the response. I am new to HDV and so am trying to take it all in. I could be wrong, but I swear I read that the way the camera handles the 24f reduces the resolution. If, in fact, the reduction is negligible, that answers the question.

So, both of you are saying that if I want the smooth video look just shoot 60i and if I want the more filmic look shoot 24f. That is fine, I was just a little worried about the lost resolution.

I also thought that my Cineform manual suggested I use DVFilmmaker for interlacing. Is this still a good method?

Pete Bauer · November 5th, 2006, 11:37 PM

The F modes do have a modestly reduced vertical resolution AS COMPARED to Canon 60i HDV. Perhaps 500-550 lines in F Mode compared to 750-800 in 60i, depending on whose test numbers. (There are many, many threads about this on DVinfo). That's as good or better than any results you'll get by de-interlacing 60i. There's just no need to go to all that post-production trouble, IMO.

Robert Sanders · November 6th, 2006, 01:42 PM

Canon's 24F mode looks amazing and is the same in quality as 24P, in my opinion.

Devon Lyon · November 9th, 2006, 07:47 PM

Ok, another question. If I shoot in Canon 24f on the XH-A1 and import via my Cineform Aspect HD with the correct preset, am I then going to be able to export to a NTSC SD 29.97 final file?

The reason I ask is because I shoot a lot of local commercials and from what I've seen online, I quite like the look of 24f. Just want to know that it can be finalized into a normal SD NTSC file for broadcast TV.

Thanks.

David Newman · November 9th, 2006, 10:08 PM

Most broadcast SD NTSC TV is orginally 24P. You just add the pulldown back. This happens automatically when creating SD DVDs.

Devon Lyon · November 11th, 2006, 09:28 PM

Thanks for the reply and feedback. I've now spent two days with the camera and now agree that the 24f is a very nice looking setting and doesn't seem to produce overly reduced resolution.

Hope someone can help with the following minor problem. I imported my HDV 24f footage into PPro 2.0 via Cineform Aspect HD. I edited my test project and exported the follwing two ways: (1) via Adobe Media Encoder to MPEG2-DVD and; (2) as a Cineform AVI and then imported into TMPGnc and converted to MPEG2 for DVD (BOTH as standard def 720x480)

Here is my question(s): The DVD plays perfect on a LCD TV and on my big home Sony rear projection TV. The third TV, a Sony Wega CRT, plays the DVD but displays what I call "teeth" or interlace artifacts. All three DVD players support progressive and I made sure to always export as a "no fields" or "progressive" file at 23.976 fps.

Any idea why on the CRT tube TV the DVD shows small "teeth" on moving objects and does NOT display the "teeth" on the LCD or the rear projection?

Thanks!

November 5th, 2006, 05:35 PM	#1
Devon Lyon Major Player Join Date: May 2005 Location: Oregon Posts: 213	Canon XH-A1 Cineform & DVFilmmaker Workflow OK, wonder if anyone can very simply walk me through the workflow on using Cineform and DVFilmmaker to turn 1080 60i HDV footage shot on the Canon XH-A1 camera into good 24P (I edit in Premier Pro 2.0 on a good PC)? For those who are currently using the Canon XL-H1 I imagine it would be the same. I already own Cineform Aspect HD and am waiting on the camera which I should get on Monday or Tuesday and want a straight forward workflow. I keep reading that I should shoot in 1080 60i (and NOT Canon's 24f). I also keep reading the DVFilmmaker is a high quality way to de-interlace without much loss in resolution. Thanks for any step-by-step workflow. __________________ Lyon Films www.LyonFilms.com;

November 5th, 2006, 06:31 PM	#2
David Newman CTO, CineForm Inc. Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Cardiff-by-the-Sea, California Posts: 8,095	I would prefer to shoot in 24F rather than 60i and post deinterlace. The post processing can never fully restore the 24p cadence. You may have a slight resolution edge (not guaranteed) but will always introduce some ghosting and motion artifacts as a result of the 60i to 24p conversion. Canon 24F mode is not too much of compromise for a nice 24p image. __________________ David Newman -- web: www.gopro.com blog: cineform.blogspot.com -- twitter: twitter.com/David_Newman

November 5th, 2006, 07:34 PM	#4
Devon Lyon Major Player Join Date: May 2005 Location: Oregon Posts: 213	I do appreciate the polite nature of the response. I am new to HDV and so am trying to take it all in. I could be wrong, but I swear I read that the way the camera handles the 24f reduces the resolution. If, in fact, the reduction is negligible, that answers the question. So, both of you are saying that if I want the smooth video look just shoot 60i and if I want the more filmic look shoot 24f. That is fine, I was just a little worried about the lost resolution. I also thought that my Cineform manual suggested I use DVFilmmaker for interlacing. Is this still a good method? __________________ Lyon Films www.LyonFilms.com;

November 5th, 2006, 11:37 PM	#5
Pete Bauer Wrangler Join Date: May 2003 Location: Eagle River, AK Posts: 4,100	The F modes do have a modestly reduced vertical resolution AS COMPARED to Canon 60i HDV. Perhaps 500-550 lines in F Mode compared to 750-800 in 60i, depending on whose test numbers. (There are many, many threads about this on DVinfo). That's as good or better than any results you'll get by de-interlacing 60i. There's just no need to go to all that post-production trouble, IMO. __________________ Pete Bauer The most beautiful thing we can experience is the mysterious. It is the source of all true art and science. Albert Einstein Trying to solve a DV mystery? You may find the answer behind the SEARCH function ... or be able to join a discussion already in progress!

November 6th, 2006, 01:42 PM	#6
Robert Sanders Starway Pictures Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Studio City Posts: 581	Canon's 24F mode looks amazing and is the same in quality as 24P, in my opinion. __________________ http://www.starwaypictures.com http://starwaypictures.blogspot.com/

November 9th, 2006, 07:47 PM	#7
Devon Lyon Major Player Join Date: May 2005 Location: Oregon Posts: 213	Ok, another question. If I shoot in Canon 24f on the XH-A1 and import via my Cineform Aspect HD with the correct preset, am I then going to be able to export to a NTSC SD 29.97 final file? The reason I ask is because I shoot a lot of local commercials and from what I've seen online, I quite like the look of 24f. Just want to know that it can be finalized into a normal SD NTSC file for broadcast TV. Thanks. __________________ Lyon Films www.LyonFilms.com;

November 9th, 2006, 10:08 PM	#8
David Newman CTO, CineForm Inc. Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Cardiff-by-the-Sea, California Posts: 8,095	Most broadcast SD NTSC TV is orginally 24P. You just add the pulldown back. This happens automatically when creating SD DVDs. __________________ David Newman -- web: www.gopro.com blog: cineform.blogspot.com -- twitter: twitter.com/David_Newman

November 11th, 2006, 09:28 PM	#9
Devon Lyon Major Player Join Date: May 2005 Location: Oregon Posts: 213	Thanks for the reply and feedback. I've now spent two days with the camera and now agree that the 24f is a very nice looking setting and doesn't seem to produce overly reduced resolution. Hope someone can help with the following minor problem. I imported my HDV 24f footage into PPro 2.0 via Cineform Aspect HD. I edited my test project and exported the follwing two ways: (1) via Adobe Media Encoder to MPEG2-DVD and; (2) as a Cineform AVI and then imported into TMPGnc and converted to MPEG2 for DVD (BOTH as standard def 720x480) Here is my question(s): The DVD plays perfect on a LCD TV and on my big home Sony rear projection TV. The third TV, a Sony Wega CRT, plays the DVD but displays what I call "teeth" or interlace artifacts. All three DVD players support progressive and I made sure to always export as a "no fields" or "progressive" file at 23.976 fps. Any idea why on the CRT tube TV the DVD shows small "teeth" on moving objects and does NOT display the "teeth" on the LCD or the rear projection? Thanks! __________________ Lyon Films www.LyonFilms.com;