Problems with Movement in Video

[Paul Kepen]

Originally Posted by David Newman

There is something you are doing wrong, but your description is not leading to any conclusions. You can be mixing frame rate with blending, you could be mixing format, somehow, yet the "When you puase the play of the video it disapears" say that the video is fine. Video is nothing more that a series of frames, so you must be messing with the candence, which may give the illusion of a double image. You going to have to send us an example clip. Use "yousendit.com" and email yourself. Copy that link and email me it through DVInfo.net (click on my username.)

Hi Again David. Sorry to be such a pain, but which clip(s) do you need? The original CF avi from the capture, the Export CF avi that goes to Encore, or the transcoded Encore Mpeg ? All 3, or some particular combination?

In looking back; your post of Aug19 3:50pm - "export 1080i using CineForm HD export - set DVD size+pixel." I missed the last part and exported as 1080i. That is the one that on Aug20-12:39pm I wrote "I've made per above and it plays perfect in WinMediaPlayer." Encore would not take it cause the size was 1080x1440, but DVD Architect did-took a long time but that DVD looked very good-except for the double image during playback-not during pause.

As I re-read your instructions and subsequent posts, it seems you were telling me to do exactly what the Cineform Web FAQ says for making a DVD. The step I missed on Aug 19-20 was the "set DVD size,pixel,etc." I tried that last night (I tried that several months ago) and the result (again) was TERRIBLE interlacing problems.

Question: HDV is upper field. DV and DVD are lower field first (probably why I never had these problems with DV). So we are taking video that was scanned line 1 then line 2, etc. and we are outputing that scan line 2 then line 1. Doen't this naturally lead to mixed fields? I would think the only way to switch from upper to lower field would be to deinterlace the original HDV upper field video, or basically make it progressive, and then interlace with lower field first. I don't see anywhere in this workflow where we are doing this?

I really feel bad about taking up so much of your time. I think if you would published Step by Step detailled instructions- even with screen shots of each setting, and do this for the different HD cameras, etc., that you possibly you would save a lot of time for all of us. As I said earlier, I by no means want/could use Pinnacle Studio, but it was sure neat that on the 1st try, the DVD came out looking good. Please let me know whic clip(s) you need.

As always, Thanks again David for all your hard work. PK

[David Newman]

All three files would be good.

[Paul Kepen]

Thanks, currently its about 6 minutes of mixed footage. I will cut it down over the weekend to 2min or so and then send it to you. Have a Good Weekend - PK

[Brad Tyrrell]

Could I ask how this was resolved?

I'm having a very similar problem but when I pause I DO see the double image on movement. Apparently it's an interlace/de-interlace problem but I haven't figured it out yet. Just thought maybe the solution to your problem might lead me in the right direction.

Still playing with check boxes.

XH-A1 -> HDVsplit -> HDLink -> PP2 -> (Also tried VirtualDub in here) -> TMPGenc 4.0 express -> Encore 2

[Paul Kepen]

Originally Posted by Brad Tyrrell

Could I ask how this was resolved?

I'm having a very similar problem but when I pause I DO see the double image on movement. Apparently it's an interlace/de-interlace problem but I haven't figured it out yet. Just thought maybe the solution to your problem might lead me in the right direction.

Still playing with check boxes.

XH-A1 -> HDVsplit -> HDLink -> PP2 -> (Also tried VirtualDub in here) -> TMPGenc 4.0 express -> Encore 2

Hi Brad,
I've given up on using Premiere cause no matter what I tried, motion just looked awful. I tired every combination upper/lower field first, converting it to progress , etc, and I just couldn't get it to look right. I have PPro 1.5, so maybe 2.0 is okay, but I had better luck with Vegsa. In Vegas, if I remeber correctly the problem was in my set up telling Vegas wheather it should automatically de-interlace or not. It still did not fix the seagull having multiple sets of wings when he flies by, but everything else is okay. I have tried repeatedly, and some times that Seagull has 2 sets of wings, sometimes 3 sets. Sometimes I can get it so that when you pause he only has 1 set, but when you play - he has 2 sets of wings.Other clips with seagulls do not have this problem, and when you watch the oringinal HDV tape this does not happen. When I sent these clips to the cineform folks - they said they were normal. They had me run a field order test with AE - and yes that checks out - but that seagull really really really - did not multiple sets of wings. I'm patiently waiting for Blue Ray media to become more realistic priced.($20+ for a recordable disk at BBY ??). Sorry that I'm not helping you much. Good luck, and if you find the answer to this problem, please let me know too. Thanks - PK

[Brad Tyrrell]

Paul,

It wouldn't be too bad if there were only a lot of switches, but I'm finding some of the programs make assumptions, - sometimes good sometimes bad.

I got Tmpgenc 4 and since it had a lancosz3 resizer tool I figured I could bypass Virtualdub, - wrong.

I've got things working OK now by outputing PP2 to an AspectHD avi, feeding that to virtualdub to resize, feeding that output to Tmpgenc, and feeding that to Encore2.

It seems logical that I should be able to simplify this workflow if I can find the right switches.

It doesn't seem to matter what field order you feed to Encore, the dvds play fine. If it's backward the preview is awful though.

It seems that somewhere, somehow, when I wasn't using Vdub, the frames got superimposed (one of the de-interlacing methods I suppose). Anyway, pause the dvd and you see both images. Why resizing in Vdub fixed that I have now idea. I think I'm missing something. It could be a progressive thing somewhere, but I haven't caught it.

[Paul Kepen]

Hi Brad, you may have read this elswhere by now. Even though my camera is 1080i HDV, it seems the reccomended way to go is; 1. Capture with Cineform using capture as progressive . 2. Edit normally 3. Output to DVD as progressive. I have tried this and the results have been very good with both Premiere and Vegas. I copied the following from a post on this forum and followed these steps. I did not keep the original posters name, so My hat is of to him with a heartfelt "Thanks" to whoever you are.

* Record video in HDV1080i (HDR-HC7)
* Capture to Vegas as 1080i with the following adjustments to the properties: Field order = None (progressive), Full res rendering = Best.

* After edit, render as: MainConcept MPEG-2 with the following custom settings: Video rendering = best, In video tab: Output type = DVD, Width = 720, Height = 480, Field order = Progressive only, Video quality max (31), Constant bit rate = 9,800,000. (don't render audio)

* After I render the video, I do the audio: Render as: Sony Perfect Clarity Audio with the default template.
* I create the DVD in Sony DVD Architect Studio 4.0

[Brad Tyrrell]

Paul,

Glad you got the kinks out.

I seem to have gotten things working for myself too, - sort of.

I recently shot some HDV that needed color correcting and decided to make life easier and buy Aspect HD. Unfortunately, the combination of the current releases of HD and PP2 crash my machine constantly. Gonna try the PP3 Beta and the May upgrade of Aspect. Fingers crossed.

Pre-Cineform workflow:

Canon XH-A1 -> HDVSplit -> PP2 -> DebugMode Frameserver -> Tmpgenc Express -> Encore2

If I can get my machine working with Cineform I'll have to decide whether it's better to frameserve or create an AVI out of PP2 to feed to Tmpgenc. Sure takes less space to frameserve. Otherwise I guess I've blown $500 and it's back to editing .m2t.

I do still see the occasional minor "judder" but I'm thinking that has to do with HDV compression.

An interesting side note: I've been running my footage through MPEGStreamclip before loading into PP2 to straighten out time code problems that sometimes occur when capturing to my laptop with HDVSplit. Works great and very quick.

Brad

[Paul Kepen]

Wow Brad, How do you like your Canon XH-A1? Looks like a sweet unit. What other HDV camcorders have you used? Does the A-1 image blow them away, or is it just a subtle improvement? Are you shooting in 60i or 24f mode, and which works better for editing? I guess you loose some resolution with 24f, but is it noticeable? I have a Sony HC-1, and its been a great camera -nice small size to travel with and it is solidly built. However, low light, and playing with an A-1 at the dealer last week, have me tempted to upgrade.

Your workflow looks a lot more complex then mine. I'm not familiar with frameserve or what it does. Does your workflow pretty much eliminate artifacts, other then judder? DVD output IS disappointing compared to watching tape directly from camcorder to HDTV where artifactting and motion problems are negligible (no judder).

I have PPro 1.5, and I don't have any problems with Aspect at all, guess I'm glad I didn't upgrade to 2.0 :), but I think my hand is going to be forced here pretty soon with the new CS3 version coming. Anyways, thanks for the info, and good luck - PK

[Brad Tyrrell]

I like the A1 a lot. It's not an "out-of-the-box" machine though.

I shoot 60i and haven't noticed many artifacts. Really bright red objects are a bit of a problem. Looks like the color almost "floats" over the objects. I've been told that's the nature of HDV compression.

Downloaded the CS3 Beta and Cineform isn't crashing now. That's a relief.