Prospect HD -- various questions

David Newman · August 16th, 2006, 01:09 PM

We have a fix for the 720p to 180p HXV upres in the next build of Prospect HD. Looks really nice now, although like my blog states you don't benefit much posting HXV footage at 1080p. We are still a couple builds before will will do a mass email to all Prospect HD users and get everyone upgraded.

Dave F. Nelson · October 1st, 2006, 12:45 PM

Prospect HD Enhancement - Support Sony HVR-V1U HDMI-->HD SDI w/3:2 pulldown removal

For a background, Sony is introducing the first TRUE 24p camcorder under 10,000 (Panasonic and Canon cameras use interlaced CCDs). I am interested in purchasing a Sony HVR-V1U HDV camcorder when it comes out.

However, I am interested in capturing video directly from the HDMI port rather than compressed HDV video from the Firewire port. Convergent Designs makes an HDMI to HD-SDI converter just for this purpose that would output HD SDI directly to a Aja Xena card.

Problem

Sony captures progressive full-resolution 1920x1080, 24p, 10 bit 4:2:2 color data, but I believe they output it to HDMI with 3:2 pulldown so the converter would be sending output in 1080 60i rather than 24p to the HD-SDI output.

In your Aspect and Prospect HD pages you mention support for special Sony HDV Cineframe CF24 and CF30 modes. However, as you mention in your Aspect HD discussion, your conversion method from 60i to 24p is adquate but loses resolution and that there are better 60i to 24p solutions out there.

This new camcorder does not use Sony's HDV CINEFRAME CF24 output like the older Z1U, A1U, or FX1. This is HDMI full-resolution, uncompressed 1920x1080, 1080 60i, 10 bit 4:2:2 color output, and Sony embeds their 24p in the 60i stream with 3:2 pulldown. Prospect would need to be able to remove the 3:2 pulldown and restore the actual 24p material without the loss of resolution. I'm sure that it would require figuring out how the Sony HVR-V1U stored the information on the fly, to restore the original 24p material.

This may take an investment on your part but since Sony will no doubt introduce other camcorders with 24p and 3:2 pulldown to the HDMI port, the investment would surely be worth it.

Black Magic is introducing the Intensity for $249.00, http://www.blackmagic-design.com/products/intensity, an HDMI board that captures uncompressed full 1920x1080 4:2:2 10 bit output. If you supported this card directly in Aspect and Prospect HD, with 3:2 pulldown, this would be the ultimate LOW COST solution.

This may also be the ticket for Cineform to enter the Mac world supporting the Mac Pro too!

I hope you plan to support this card, but if you don't, then the HDMI to HD-SDI converter would be my second choice.

I would then be interested in the Convergent Design HD-Connect MI, HDMI to HD-SDI converter. Info is available at: http://www.convergent-design.com/CD_...DConnectMI.htm

This converter could feed the AJA Xena card directly. If you could perform your 3:2 pulldown removal magic with Prospect HD, this would probably be a killer 10 bit combination.

Thanks.

David Newman · October 1st, 2006, 01:15 PM

We already support 60i to 24p extraction without any resolution loss over HDSDI in real-time, so you are good to go with Prospect HD Ingest and an AJA HDSDI I/O card. Within the capture interface you select 1920x1080i60 10-bit HDSDI, add the capture option to remove the 3-2 pulldown auotmatically. We are looking into the new Black Magic HDMI card as a capture device, yet AJA will still be our primary all-purpose HDSDI card.

Dave F. Nelson · October 1st, 2006, 01:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David Newman

We already support 60i to 24p extraction without any resolution loss over HDSDI in real-time, so you are good to go with Prospect HD Ingest and an AJA HDSDI I/O card. Within the capture interface you select 1920x1080i60 10-bit HDSDI, add the capture option to remove the 3-2 pulldown auotmatically. We are looking into the new Black Magic HDMI capture as a capture device, yet AJA will still be our primary all-purpose HDSDI card.

Thanks for your rapid response. I realize that HDSDI will always be your primary card, but I would guess that HDMI acquisition will probably end up as the acquisition method of choice for all under $3000 serious AVCHD and HDV camcorder users, whether Cineform chooses to participate or not. Afterall, Sony has HDMI on 3 low cost HD camcorders now with more to follow. I'm sure JVC, Canon, Pana etc. will follow suit in future HD camcorders.

I would also guess that HDMI will be more important to Aspect HD users than Prospect HD users. However the market has a way of changing rapidly while you're not looking.

I'm glad to hear that you are looking at HDMI capture. I think it would be good for your company. That's just my opinion.

I will be purchasing Prospect HD as soon as I have had a chance to test the new Sony HVR-V1U with an eval version of the Convergent HDMI converter and the trial version of Prospect HD in the real world.

I have high hopes for this combination with Prospect HD for our new film.

Thanks again, Dave.

David Ziegelheim · October 5th, 2006, 09:42 AM

Wow, I was just going to ask that question.

Let me add one...is there an HDMI I/O card for laptops???

If so...the Sony to Cineform via HDMI may become a new standard :)

David Ziegelheim · October 5th, 2006, 08:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David Newman

We already support 60i to 24p extraction without any resolution loss over HDSDI in real-time, so you are good to go with Prospect HD Ingest and an AJA HDSDI I/O card. Within the capture interface you select 1920x1080i60 10-bit HDSDI, add the capture option to remove the 3-2 pulldown auotmatically. We are looking into the new Black Magic HDMI card as a capture device, yet AJA will still be our primary all-purpose HDSDI card.

Since AJA doesn't have plans for an HDMI interface, BlackMagic HDMI support would be necessary. At $250, dramatically lowers the price of acquistion; especially coupled with a $4800 camcorder.

Darryl Hill · October 8th, 2006, 05:56 PM

I am having a problem converting mxf. files from my Firestore via HDLink, I can convert the video fine, but I am unable to convert the audio as well.
Any ideas on why this is?
Also when converting I was always able to get the log to come up, now it has disapeared on me and I cannot get it to load with HDLink, (the 'log' button does nothing)

David Newman · October 8th, 2006, 11:01 PM

Certainly fine a trouble ticket at cineform.com/support. Also check the you have an "AUDIO" directory in your "CONENTS" folder.

Karina Nemuhina · October 9th, 2006, 10:14 PM

I am sure that the same revolutionary thinking that went into the development of cineform will lead to its usage with HDMI technology.
I am confident that cineform will reach the mass market of indie film producers.One of such routes will definitely be by closer integration with cheaper HDMI.

Dave Campbell · November 6th, 2006, 01:53 PM

David, wonder what the latest status for the next release is?

Thanks

Dave

David Newman · November 6th, 2006, 02:05 PM

We went out a email blast to registered Prospect HD users for the latest version a week or two ago. I'll send you that information.

Dave Campbell · November 6th, 2006, 02:19 PM

Cool, just sent you an email back. I never saw this email. Could someone make sure I am registered correctly. Thanks

Dave

Geoff Murillo · November 14th, 2006, 12:44 PM

David Taylor and David Newman,

I just watched the Quad Demo Video - Congratulations on the Real Time 4K support.

Anyone who wants to download the video should go to the Cineform home page and click on the link on the right hand side, under the 11/14/06 4K Real Time announcement.

Congratulations on the XBox announcement too.

-Geoff Murillo

David Newman · November 14th, 2006, 02:19 PM

Thanks, it has been a busy few months.

Richard Leadbetter · November 15th, 2006, 08:45 AM

The presentation is pretty staggering and a real testament to the n-way threading technology. It's also a tantalising look at tomorrow's technology and workflow, today. Plus nice to put some names to faces :)

Out of curiosity, if the uncompressed workflow requires 1.7GB per second bandwidth, how much is this reduced by using the CineForm codec? What sort of benchmark do you get with the CineForm decoder on this system up against the benchmarks on your "four cores the merrier" blog entry? And what kind of HDD array is required to service this workflow?

For my own applications, 1080p/60 will be the next 'big thing'. Could a single Kentsfield take care of that in High Quality/Progressive?

The Xbox announcement is absolutely fascinating. I'm wondering what technology you had to develop there - I'm assuming the bulk of the Wafian's work is in ingesting 1080i/60 over HD-SDI and rescaling to 720p/24 on the fly?

August 16th, 2006, 01:09 PM	#61
David Newman CTO, CineForm Inc. Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Cardiff-by-the-Sea, California Posts: 8,095	We have a fix for the 720p to 180p HXV upres in the next build of Prospect HD. Looks really nice now, although like my blog states you don't benefit much posting HXV footage at 1080p. We are still a couple builds before will will do a mass email to all Prospect HD users and get everyone upgraded. __________________ David Newman -- web: www.gopro.com blog: cineform.blogspot.com -- twitter: twitter.com/David_Newman

October 1st, 2006, 12:45 PM	#62
Dave F. Nelson Regular Crew Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: San Diego, CA Posts: 129	Prospect HD Enhancement - Support Sony HVR-V1U HDMI-->HD SDI w/3:2 Pulldown Removal Prospect HD Enhancement - Support Sony HVR-V1U HDMI-->HD SDI w/3:2 pulldown removal For a background, Sony is introducing the first TRUE 24p camcorder under 10,000 (Panasonic and Canon cameras use interlaced CCDs). I am interested in purchasing a Sony HVR-V1U HDV camcorder when it comes out. However, I am interested in capturing video directly from the HDMI port rather than compressed HDV video from the Firewire port. Convergent Designs makes an HDMI to HD-SDI converter just for this purpose that would output HD SDI directly to a Aja Xena card. Problem Sony captures progressive full-resolution 1920x1080, 24p, 10 bit 4:2:2 color data, but I believe they output it to HDMI with 3:2 pulldown so the converter would be sending output in 1080 60i rather than 24p to the HD-SDI output. In your Aspect and Prospect HD pages you mention support for special Sony HDV Cineframe CF24 and CF30 modes. However, as you mention in your Aspect HD discussion, your conversion method from 60i to 24p is adquate but loses resolution and that there are better 60i to 24p solutions out there. This new camcorder does not use Sony's HDV CINEFRAME CF24 output like the older Z1U, A1U, or FX1. This is HDMI full-resolution, uncompressed 1920x1080, 1080 60i, 10 bit 4:2:2 color output, and Sony embeds their 24p in the 60i stream with 3:2 pulldown. Prospect would need to be able to remove the 3:2 pulldown and restore the actual 24p material without the loss of resolution. I'm sure that it would require figuring out how the Sony HVR-V1U stored the information on the fly, to restore the original 24p material. This may take an investment on your part but since Sony will no doubt introduce other camcorders with 24p and 3:2 pulldown to the HDMI port, the investment would surely be worth it. Black Magic is introducing the Intensity for $249.00, http://www.blackmagic-design.com/products/intensity, an HDMI board that captures uncompressed full 1920x1080 4:2:2 10 bit output. If you supported this card directly in Aspect and Prospect HD, with 3:2 pulldown, this would be the ultimate LOW COST solution. This may also be the ticket for Cineform to enter the Mac world supporting the Mac Pro too! I hope you plan to support this card, but if you don't, then the HDMI to HD-SDI converter would be my second choice. I would then be interested in the Convergent Design HD-Connect MI, HDMI to HD-SDI converter. Info is available at: http://www.convergent-design.com/CD_...DConnectMI.htm This converter could feed the AJA Xena card directly. If you could perform your 3:2 pulldown removal magic with Prospect HD, this would probably be a killer 10 bit combination. Thanks. Last edited by Dave F. Nelson; October 1st, 2006 at 03:21 PM.

October 1st, 2006, 01:15 PM	#63
David Newman CTO, CineForm Inc. Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Cardiff-by-the-Sea, California Posts: 8,095	We already support 60i to 24p extraction without any resolution loss over HDSDI in real-time, so you are good to go with Prospect HD Ingest and an AJA HDSDI I/O card. Within the capture interface you select 1920x1080i60 10-bit HDSDI, add the capture option to remove the 3-2 pulldown auotmatically. We are looking into the new Black Magic HDMI card as a capture device, yet AJA will still be our primary all-purpose HDSDI card. __________________ David Newman -- web: www.gopro.com blog: cineform.blogspot.com -- twitter: twitter.com/David_Newman

October 8th, 2006, 05:56 PM	#67
Darryl Hill New Boot Join Date: May 2006 Location: Longwood Florida Posts: 15	Prospect HD & Firestore Fs-100 I am having a problem converting mxf. files from my Firestore via HDLink, I can convert the video fine, but I am unable to convert the audio as well. Any ideas on why this is? Also when converting I was always able to get the log to come up, now it has disapeared on me and I cannot get it to load with HDLink, (the 'log' button does nothing)

October 8th, 2006, 11:01 PM	#68
David Newman CTO, CineForm Inc. Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Cardiff-by-the-Sea, California Posts: 8,095	Certainly fine a trouble ticket at cineform.com/support. Also check the you have an "AUDIO" directory in your "CONENTS" folder. __________________ David Newman -- web: www.gopro.com blog: cineform.blogspot.com -- twitter: twitter.com/David_Newman

October 5th, 2006, 09:42 AM	#65
David Ziegelheim Major Player Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Warren, NJ Posts: 398	Wow, I was just going to ask that question. Let me add one...is there an HDMI I/O card for laptops??? If so...the Sony to Cineform via HDMI may become a new standard :)

October 9th, 2006, 10:14 PM	#69
Karina Nemuhina Regular Crew Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Russia Posts: 38	HDMI to CINEFORM I am sure that the same revolutionary thinking that went into the development of cineform will lead to its usage with HDMI technology. I am confident that cineform will reach the mass market of indie film producers.One of such routes will definitely be by closer integration with cheaper HDMI.

November 6th, 2006, 01:53 PM	#70
Dave Campbell Major Player Join Date: Aug 2003 Posts: 568	Prospect HD new release Status David, wonder what the latest status for the next release is? Thanks Dave

November 6th, 2006, 02:05 PM	#71
David Newman CTO, CineForm Inc. Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Cardiff-by-the-Sea, California Posts: 8,095	We went out a email blast to registered Prospect HD users for the latest version a week or two ago. I'll send you that information. __________________ David Newman -- web: www.gopro.com blog: cineform.blogspot.com -- twitter: twitter.com/David_Newman

November 6th, 2006, 02:19 PM	#72
Dave Campbell Major Player Join Date: Aug 2003 Posts: 568	Cool, just sent you an email back. I never saw this email. Could someone make sure I am registered correctly. Thanks Dave

November 14th, 2006, 12:44 PM	#73
Geoff Murillo Regular Crew Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Glendale, CA Posts: 92	Congratulations on Cineform Prospect 4k David Taylor and David Newman, I just watched the Quad Demo Video - Congratulations on the Real Time 4K support. Anyone who wants to download the video should go to the Cineform home page and click on the link on the right hand side, under the 11/14/06 4K Real Time announcement. Congratulations on the XBox announcement too. -Geoff Murillo

November 14th, 2006, 02:19 PM	#74
David Newman CTO, CineForm Inc. Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Cardiff-by-the-Sea, California Posts: 8,095	Thanks, it has been a busy few months. __________________ David Newman -- web: www.gopro.com blog: cineform.blogspot.com -- twitter: twitter.com/David_Newman

November 15th, 2006, 08:45 AM	#75
Richard Leadbetter Major Player Join Date: Dec 2005 Posts: 323	The presentation is pretty staggering and a real testament to the n-way threading technology. It's also a tantalising look at tomorrow's technology and workflow, today. Plus nice to put some names to faces :) Out of curiosity, if the uncompressed workflow requires 1.7GB per second bandwidth, how much is this reduced by using the CineForm codec? What sort of benchmark do you get with the CineForm decoder on this system up against the benchmarks on your "four cores the merrier" blog entry? And what kind of HDD array is required to service this workflow? For my own applications, 1080p/60 will be the next 'big thing'. Could a single Kentsfield take care of that in High Quality/Progressive? The Xbox announcement is absolutely fascinating. I'm wondering what technology you had to develop there - I'm assuming the bulk of the Wafian's work is in ingesting 1080i/60 over HD-SDI and rescaling to 720p/24 on the fly?