Cineform and Premiere Pro 2.0 at DVinfo.net

Randy Donato · January 12th, 2006, 06:09 PM

Rumor mill has it that 2.0 will support native HDV(.m2t) editing...If so big mistake IMHO and what is up with the Cineform plugin...is it(meaning the limited version in 1.51) still a part of 2.0? Also will the Aspect 3.x version plug into 2.0 or is that more dollars?...or more likely than not NDA's perevent an answer at this time?

David Newman · January 12th, 2006, 06:17 PM

Yes, you got it (the last part.) :)

Randy Donato · January 12th, 2006, 06:42 PM

Actually here is a link to 2.0 specs so the part about native .m2t is true.....I laughed at the system specs.....I want to see someone with dual xeon 2.8s do anything other than playback the file. I guess the marketing lure of being able to say "native" got the better of them. As a format to record to tape it is great...not so great to edit. http://www.promate.nl/adobe/producti..._datasheet.pdf Actually they say P4 3.4 for HDV...too funny.

David Newman · January 12th, 2006, 06:51 PM

That info doesn't seem public in the US yet (so I should still defer my comments.) :)

Randy Donato · January 12th, 2006, 07:04 PM

If they have dropped the 1.51 Cineform plugin like function in favor of .m2t it is a great move for Cineform since you can now get the business that you didn't have from those who were happy with 1.51 and didn't buy Aspect. Let users muck around with .m2t for a while and they will flock to your plugin.

David Newman · January 12th, 2006, 07:14 PM

We see it that way also. :)

Steven Gotz · January 12th, 2006, 08:09 PM

There is no question in my mind that Cineform Aspect HD made it possible for me to actually edit video from my Sony FX1. Without it, I would have been miserable. If 2.0 does not have it, and Cineform does not charge for the upgrade their software requires (or keeps it reasonable), it will leave those of us who have a copy to explain the situation to the poor saps who suffer along without it for a while. I don't know how much Cineform made on each copy of 1.5.1 but my guess is that they will all be a lot richer after 2.0 comes out. Every one of the HDV users will want Aspect HD now. All of a sudden, the price will become les of an obstacle.

Randy Donato · January 12th, 2006, 09:21 PM

Well not everyone since other apps are out there but if you want to stick to Ppro you are absolutely right.I mostly use Canopus Edius with an Nx but there are a few things that I can't do in Edius that I can in Ppro with Aspect and it is a great combo. If my choice was Ppro and .m2t forget it. I think it is a huge step backwards for Adobe who wouldn't have even been a player at all in the HDV game without the 1.51 plugin that took forever as it was. It doesn't surprise me though since Adobe isn't known for being loyal to outside companies whose products are too good and don't play by their rules(Canopus has experiance with that and watch what happens to Matrox)...I want to see their new multicam in action with a couple of HDV(.m2t) streams......ha. Hey does this mean the poor slobs with FCP(also enjoying the good life of "Native") can now get a Cineform plugin since the Adobe bonds have weakened:)

David Taylor · January 13th, 2006, 12:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Randy Donato

Hey does this mean the poor slobs with FCP(also enjoying the good life of "Native") can now get a Cineform plugin since the Adobe bonds have weakened:)

Well...remember that Apple is in the process of moving all their HW to the Intel platform. That means if we choose to support FCP, the porting of our codec, which is heavily optimized with SSE2 special instructions, just got a whole lot easier....

Randy Donato · January 13th, 2006, 01:50 AM

If 1/2 of what I am hearing is true about the new native HDV support the backlash could turn many in the HDV market away from Adobe and in at least the short run that isn't good for you guys....but you will dominate if anyone stays and is serious about editing HDV...so long as the renown video editing code writers from India let you stay.

Jason Lowe · January 13th, 2006, 08:38 AM

On a somewhat related note, here's the release notes for Encore 2

http://www.promate.nl/adobe/producti..._datasheet.pdf

John Hewat · January 13th, 2006, 09:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jason Lowe

On a somewhat related note, here's the release notes for Encore 2

http://www.promate.nl/adobe/producti..._datasheet.pdf

No indication that you can create DVDs with HDV quality footage.

I was secretly hoping this wouldn't hit the streets until they had HD-DVD creation as an option.

Jason Rodriguez · January 13th, 2006, 11:56 PM

Of course compounding the fact that you'll need a heck of a system to edit native .mt2's, is the fact that post workflow when it comes to multi-generational passes completely hits the wall quality-wise after the first generation.

If you work in any sort of post workflow where it all doesn't just stay on your single box/NAS/SAN (and all you do is dynamic link between After Effects 7 and Premiere 2), you could be in for an extreme world of hurt. Start rendering out files to send to multiple other users (as is very common in a group workflow where multiple packages are used for their given strengths for a specific task) and the game's over.

Again, using dynamic link, I could see how one could keep from loosing multiple generations through avoiding the path of exporting/importing .m2t files back-and-forth, but that's only within the Adobe family, and when looked at in light of a typical post production workflow as a whole, is very limiting and prone to problems. Frankly, if Adobe is going to go after the same markets as Final Cut and Avid, they need to have some form of "group-think"-i.e, higher end users tend to work in colaborative workflows, they are not just single islands and one-man-bands. While Apple was advertising the "renessaince man" approach to work last NAB, at least they acknowledge that their higher-end users are not just working alone in their basement having to-do everything themselves. So at least they deliver some solutions for higher-end post paths. AVID is king of this "group-think" solution, but at least with Cineform, you can enable higher-end post paths through the quality of the codec (esp. Prospect HD), and not kill yourself on mutli-user bandwidth requirements and the cost of Adrenaline digitizing stations.

I just wish Adobe would see things that way at little more . . . instead of "native" HDV and "native" uncompressed HD (how many real-time streams can you get with that for under $10K??) that's really only good for the "island" single-user approach, they should be licensing Prospect HD and their 10-bit CFHD codec, in-turn creating killer post-production workflows that nobody can touch at their price-point with high-end interoperability and amazing real-time capabilites.

Just my .02 cents :)

John Hewat · January 14th, 2006, 07:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Randy Donato

Rumor mill has it that 2.0 will support native HDV(.m2t) editing...If so big mistake IMHO and what is up with the Cineform plugin...is it(meaning the limited version in 1.51) still a part of 2.0? Also will the Aspect 3.x version plug into 2.0 or is that more dollars?...or more likely than not NDA's perevent an answer at this time?

This by no means suggests that PPro 2 will be for exclusive editing of m2t files; it's just their way of saying "we can do that" but I imagine that they'll embrace the idea of Cineform's codec, won't they?

Randy Donato · January 14th, 2006, 11:45 AM

Well embrace isn't the word when they chose to eliminate the basic Cineform plugin and go with native HDV....I think what you mean is will Aspect still work with 2.0 and the answer is yes. Adobe has a nasty way IMHO of dealing with 3rd party vendors like Cineform (and others) and once they think they don't need you anymore it gets harder to get cooperation from them. The word arrogance is often times used by people I know that describe Adobe and I bet their spots haven't changed. Soon we will all know about how 2.0 and HDV match up and it is going to be ugly....I hear from certain birds that the playback is very very sluggish and if you capture .m2t and it wasn't done in 2.0 it will not work...how dumb is that?

January 12th, 2006, 06:09 PM	#1
Randy Donato Regular Crew Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Houston, Texas Posts: 138	Cineform and Premiere Pro 2.0 Rumor mill has it that 2.0 will support native HDV(.m2t) editing...If so big mistake IMHO and what is up with the Cineform plugin...is it(meaning the limited version in 1.51) still a part of 2.0? Also will the Aspect 3.x version plug into 2.0 or is that more dollars?...or more likely than not NDA's perevent an answer at this time?

January 12th, 2006, 06:17 PM	#2
David Newman CTO, CineForm Inc. Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Cardiff-by-the-Sea, California Posts: 8,095	Yes, you got it (the last part.) :) __________________ David Newman -- web: www.gopro.com blog: cineform.blogspot.com -- twitter: twitter.com/David_Newman

January 12th, 2006, 06:51 PM	#4
David Newman CTO, CineForm Inc. Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Cardiff-by-the-Sea, California Posts: 8,095	That info doesn't seem public in the US yet (so I should still defer my comments.) :) __________________ David Newman -- web: www.gopro.com blog: cineform.blogspot.com -- twitter: twitter.com/David_Newman

January 12th, 2006, 07:14 PM	#6
David Newman CTO, CineForm Inc. Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Cardiff-by-the-Sea, California Posts: 8,095	We see it that way also. :) __________________ David Newman -- web: www.gopro.com blog: cineform.blogspot.com -- twitter: twitter.com/David_Newman

January 12th, 2006, 08:09 PM	#7
Steven Gotz Trustee Join Date: May 2002 Location: Clermont, FL Posts: 1,520	There is no question in my mind that Cineform Aspect HD made it possible for me to actually edit video from my Sony FX1. Without it, I would have been miserable. If 2.0 does not have it, and Cineform does not charge for the upgrade their software requires (or keeps it reasonable), it will leave those of us who have a copy to explain the situation to the poor saps who suffer along without it for a while. I don't know how much Cineform made on each copy of 1.5.1 but my guess is that they will all be a lot richer after 2.0 comes out. Every one of the HDV users will want Aspect HD now. All of a sudden, the price will become les of an obstacle. __________________ Steven Gotz http://www.stevengotz.com

January 12th, 2006, 06:42 PM	#3
Randy Donato Regular Crew Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Houston, Texas Posts: 138	Actually here is a link to 2.0 specs so the part about native .m2t is true.....I laughed at the system specs.....I want to see someone with dual xeon 2.8s do anything other than playback the file. I guess the marketing lure of being able to say "native" got the better of them. As a format to record to tape it is great...not so great to edit. http://www.promate.nl/adobe/producti..._datasheet.pdf Actually they say P4 3.4 for HDV...too funny.

January 12th, 2006, 07:04 PM	#5
Randy Donato Regular Crew Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Houston, Texas Posts: 138	If they have dropped the 1.51 Cineform plugin like function in favor of .m2t it is a great move for Cineform since you can now get the business that you didn't have from those who were happy with 1.51 and didn't buy Aspect. Let users muck around with .m2t for a while and they will flock to your plugin.

January 12th, 2006, 09:21 PM	#8
Randy Donato Regular Crew Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Houston, Texas Posts: 138	Well not everyone since other apps are out there but if you want to stick to Ppro you are absolutely right.I mostly use Canopus Edius with an Nx but there are a few things that I can't do in Edius that I can in Ppro with Aspect and it is a great combo. If my choice was Ppro and .m2t forget it. I think it is a huge step backwards for Adobe who wouldn't have even been a player at all in the HDV game without the 1.51 plugin that took forever as it was. It doesn't surprise me though since Adobe isn't known for being loyal to outside companies whose products are too good and don't play by their rules(Canopus has experiance with that and watch what happens to Matrox)...I want to see their new multicam in action with a couple of HDV(.m2t) streams......ha. Hey does this mean the poor slobs with FCP(also enjoying the good life of "Native") can now get a Cineform plugin since the Adobe bonds have weakened:) Last edited by Randy Donato; January 12th, 2006 at 10:33 PM.

January 13th, 2006, 01:50 AM	#10
Randy Donato Regular Crew Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Houston, Texas Posts: 138	If 1/2 of what I am hearing is true about the new native HDV support the backlash could turn many in the HDV market away from Adobe and in at least the short run that isn't good for you guys....but you will dominate if anyone stays and is serious about editing HDV...so long as the renown video editing code writers from India let you stay.

January 13th, 2006, 08:38 AM	#11
Jason Lowe Major Player Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Smithfield, Pennsylvania Posts: 226	On a somewhat related note, here's the release notes for Encore 2 http://www.promate.nl/adobe/producti..._datasheet.pdf

January 13th, 2006, 11:56 PM	#13
Jason Rodriguez Trustee Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Virginia Beach, VA Posts: 1,095	Of course compounding the fact that you'll need a heck of a system to edit native .mt2's, is the fact that post workflow when it comes to multi-generational passes completely hits the wall quality-wise after the first generation. If you work in any sort of post workflow where it all doesn't just stay on your single box/NAS/SAN (and all you do is dynamic link between After Effects 7 and Premiere 2), you could be in for an extreme world of hurt. Start rendering out files to send to multiple other users (as is very common in a group workflow where multiple packages are used for their given strengths for a specific task) and the game's over. Again, using dynamic link, I could see how one could keep from loosing multiple generations through avoiding the path of exporting/importing .m2t files back-and-forth, but that's only within the Adobe family, and when looked at in light of a typical post production workflow as a whole, is very limiting and prone to problems. Frankly, if Adobe is going to go after the same markets as Final Cut and Avid, they need to have some form of "group-think"-i.e, higher end users tend to work in colaborative workflows, they are not just single islands and one-man-bands. While Apple was advertising the "renessaince man" approach to work last NAB, at least they acknowledge that their higher-end users are not just working alone in their basement having to-do everything themselves. So at least they deliver some solutions for higher-end post paths. AVID is king of this "group-think" solution, but at least with Cineform, you can enable higher-end post paths through the quality of the codec (esp. Prospect HD), and not kill yourself on mutli-user bandwidth requirements and the cost of Adrenaline digitizing stations. I just wish Adobe would see things that way at little more . . . instead of "native" HDV and "native" uncompressed HD (how many real-time streams can you get with that for under $10K??) that's really only good for the "island" single-user approach, they should be licensing Prospect HD and their 10-bit CFHD codec, in-turn creating killer post-production workflows that nobody can touch at their price-point with high-end interoperability and amazing real-time capabilites. Just my .02 cents :)

January 14th, 2006, 11:45 AM	#15
Randy Donato Regular Crew Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Houston, Texas Posts: 138	Well embrace isn't the word when they chose to eliminate the basic Cineform plugin and go with native HDV....I think what you mean is will Aspect still work with 2.0 and the answer is yes. Adobe has a nasty way IMHO of dealing with 3rd party vendors like Cineform (and others) and once they think they don't need you anymore it gets harder to get cooperation from them. The word arrogance is often times used by people I know that describe Adobe and I bet their spots haven't changed. Soon we will all know about how 2.0 and HDV match up and it is going to be ugly....I hear from certain birds that the playback is very very sluggish and if you capture .m2t and it wasn't done in 2.0 it will not work...how dumb is that?