CineForm workflow questions

Colvin Eccleston · September 26th, 2005, 09:22 AM

What is the best workflow to go from hdv to Flash movie and keep as much quality as possible? Using PPro and Aspect HD.

John Yamamoto · December 4th, 2005, 12:43 AM

Hi,i m interested about using freeware on HDV with a slow pc.

I use CapDVhs on XP to capture whole hr of HDV into m2t file.
read the CapDvhs carefully if u intend to use Virtualdub mpeg2.
then use virtualdubMpeg2 open it,it takes 8minutes on my celeron 850.
apply smart deinterlace and timestamp plug-in. which i think always nice to work with time code, it's at the bottom but only 10-15pixels high.
i stay at 1440 x 1080 but it converts to Progressive.
testing cineform and this takes about 2 hrs to convert 1 hr of footage.
for 2x of size u can have a workable format to edit on, the audio also convert to wav format too.

i also try others such as targa but seems crash always. may be the image sequences are too big.

HUFFY codec doesn't play although it can encode, so far only cineform works.
or go for uncompress or image sequences.
it's slow but the goodies are hard disk is cheaper and cheaper, and i can avoid many frame loss in batch capture, so far no good confirm that is oktouse batch capture in HDV,as i don;t know how to avoid chopping off key frames,may be a sec. of handle on both end will help.

My question is ;
is there any way to convert to cineform on the fly, so i can eliminate the re encode.
i know Vasst has a gearshift, but they use sony YUV codec, which i don;t have, so is this the way to do similar job with virtualdubMpeg2 and cineform?

thanks
JY

John Yamamoto · December 4th, 2005, 04:01 AM

my apology,
it's rendering at 2days,i mistook it as 2hrs.
i run another test ,10sec on cineform is about 6minutes for deinterlace, and 3 min for just plain encoding.

cheers
JY

Daniel Rudd · December 12th, 2005, 10:48 AM

John, what are you trying to accomiplish with this workflow?
Is it just designed to work on older computers?

Thanks for the post,
Daniel

Glenn Thomas · January 9th, 2006, 06:56 PM

Although I'm still yet to purchase a copy of Cineform Connect as I'll hopefully be purchasing a new computer and don't want it registered solely on one of my current machines, I've got a bit of a question regarding deinterlacing and conversion.

Now, in the John Jackman dv.com article linked from Cineform main page, he mentions that he's found the best method of converting PAL 50i footage to 24P, is to firstly capture the footage to the Cineform codec at 24P and then batch deinterlace all the shots using DV Film Maker. Now I've tried DV Film Maker, and it does quite a decent job. Although what I was wondering, is if it would be simpler just to capture the footage in the native HDV format, then batch deinterlace using DV Film Maker, but save the files in the Cineform codec from there whilst converting them to 24P in the process? If that's even possible? Or is the HD Link app the only way to do the conversion? The demo version of Connect HD I had has already expired, so I can't test this myself.

Glenn

David Newman · January 9th, 2006, 07:08 PM

Glenn,

I think you idea is sound. You can use HDLink to capture only the M2T files then import those into DV Film Maker, from there directly encode to 24p CineForm AVIs. That will work great.

Glenn Thomas · January 9th, 2006, 07:47 PM

Hi David,

Sounds great. So the conversion from 4.2.0 to 4.2.2 will still be carried out aswell during the process?

I've got a couple of hardware questions aswell, but they're probably more appropriate for the Dual core thread.

Glenn

David Newman · January 9th, 2006, 08:00 PM

Ah, the catch. We do the upconversion filtering only within HDLink and the Premiere capture interface. Within external tools like DV Film Maker, we have to assume that chroma filtering has been performed as it outputs 4:4:4 RGB data (before is it compressed as 4:2:2.) It don't know whether DV Film Maker 4:2:0 to 4:2:2 chroma filtering is as good CineForm's, that will be up to you to judge.

Glenn Thomas · January 9th, 2006, 08:49 PM

Ah I see. That's probably why John Jackman captures to Cineform first, and then deinterlaces using DV Film Maker. Although I assume not much would be lost anyway judging by the clip on your website's quality tests page?

By the way, how does the 4:2:0 to 4:2:2 chroma filtering work in the Cineform codec? Is it similar to blurring the chroma channel in Vegas using the chroma blur plugin? There's no need to answer this if it's a guarded secret :-)

Glenn

David Newman · January 9th, 2006, 08:58 PM

It is a little more complex that that. :)

Fred Foronda · February 26th, 2006, 01:53 PM

I am using vegas 6c and would like to know if my workflow is correct. I am using the trial version. This is my workflow: capture hdv footage with connect hd-load it up to vegas timeline-edit-then print to hdv tape. I see no difference in quailty when I play it back on my HDTV. Great product!!

Luis Otero · February 26th, 2006, 10:20 PM

Fred,

I use Premiere and the workfow is the same and works perfectly. So I do not see a difference between both workflows. The only difference is that we, the Premiere users, need to use Aspect HD, not Connect HD, for other irrelevant technical reasons. So keep it simple, you are in the right direction...

Luis

Fred Foronda · February 27th, 2006, 08:12 PM

Need more clarification. When I am done editing on the Vegas time line with the Cineform intermediate codec I can finalize it to SD DVD but for HD as a final destination do I switch back to the original M2T file prior to print to HDV tape??

Thanks

Luis Otero · February 28th, 2006, 07:57 PM

Fred,

I am not too familiar with Vegas. I use it only when Premiere is unable to give me either a transition or an effect that Vegas may have it. However, in Premiere, you do either two things: export to tape (which will decode the intermediate Cineform AVI and transfer it as an m2t file to the deck), or just render it as an itermediate Cineform AVI and use the HDLink to do the decoding and copying to the deck. In my case, I utilize the later since is faster, and I have both files, the intermediate and the transcoded m2t. That is why I love AspectHD in conjunction with Premiere as part of my main workflow!

Again, I do not know how Vegas does this function since I do not use it as my primary NLE, but most likely the Cineform Knowledge Database will explain it. If I get a hold of the information, I will post it it for you.

Regards,

Luis

Christopher Glaeser · March 9th, 2006, 12:39 AM

When I export a CineForm avi file from AE 7, the avi file displays properly in Windows Media Player. However, when I import the avi file into a PPro 2 project using Aspect HD mode and drop it on the timeline, it does not display correctly on the monitor (the display is grey with a grid is small dots).

Can someone please post an AE to PPro workflow that uses the Aspect HD codec so that I can try and duplicate it on my system. Thanks in advance.

Best,
Christopher

September 26th, 2005, 09:22 AM	#31
Colvin Eccleston Regular Crew Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Manchester, UK Posts: 93	To Flash - how? What is the best workflow to go from hdv to Flash movie and keep as much quality as possible? Using PPro and Aspect HD.

December 4th, 2005, 12:43 AM	#32
John Yamamoto Regular Crew Join Date: Mar 2004 Posts: 94	Poorman's HDV workflow Hi,i m interested about using freeware on HDV with a slow pc. I use CapDVhs on XP to capture whole hr of HDV into m2t file. read the CapDvhs carefully if u intend to use Virtualdub mpeg2. then use virtualdubMpeg2 open it,it takes 8minutes on my celeron 850. apply smart deinterlace and timestamp plug-in. which i think always nice to work with time code, it's at the bottom but only 10-15pixels high. i stay at 1440 x 1080 but it converts to Progressive. testing cineform and this takes about 2 hrs to convert 1 hr of footage. for 2x of size u can have a workable format to edit on, the audio also convert to wav format too. i also try others such as targa but seems crash always. may be the image sequences are too big. HUFFY codec doesn't play although it can encode, so far only cineform works. or go for uncompress or image sequences. it's slow but the goodies are hard disk is cheaper and cheaper, and i can avoid many frame loss in batch capture, so far no good confirm that is oktouse batch capture in HDV,as i don;t know how to avoid chopping off key frames,may be a sec. of handle on both end will help. My question is ; is there any way to convert to cineform on the fly, so i can eliminate the re encode. i know Vasst has a gearshift, but they use sony YUV codec, which i don;t have, so is this the way to do similar job with virtualdubMpeg2 and cineform? thanks JY

December 4th, 2005, 04:01 AM	#33
John Yamamoto Regular Crew Join Date: Mar 2004 Posts: 94	it's 2days not 2hrs my apology, it's rendering at 2days,i mistook it as 2hrs. i run another test ,10sec on cineform is about 6minutes for deinterlace, and 3 min for just plain encoding. cheers JY

December 12th, 2005, 10:48 AM	#34
Daniel Rudd Major Player Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: North Muskegon, MI Posts: 213	clarification? John, what are you trying to accomiplish with this workflow? Is it just designed to work on older computers? Thanks for the post, Daniel __________________ Daniel Rudd Digital Storyteller (Sony HDV, Aspect HD) Soundtrack Creation & Royalty Free Music Production www.stock20.com

January 9th, 2006, 06:56 PM	#35
Glenn Thomas Major Player Join Date: May 2005 Location: Sydney, Australia Posts: 320	Workflow question Although I'm still yet to purchase a copy of Cineform Connect as I'll hopefully be purchasing a new computer and don't want it registered solely on one of my current machines, I've got a bit of a question regarding deinterlacing and conversion. Now, in the John Jackman dv.com article linked from Cineform main page, he mentions that he's found the best method of converting PAL 50i footage to 24P, is to firstly capture the footage to the Cineform codec at 24P and then batch deinterlace all the shots using DV Film Maker. Now I've tried DV Film Maker, and it does quite a decent job. Although what I was wondering, is if it would be simpler just to capture the footage in the native HDV format, then batch deinterlace using DV Film Maker, but save the files in the Cineform codec from there whilst converting them to 24P in the process? If that's even possible? Or is the HD Link app the only way to do the conversion? The demo version of Connect HD I had has already expired, so I can't test this myself. Glenn

January 9th, 2006, 07:08 PM	#36
David Newman CTO, CineForm Inc. Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Cardiff-by-the-Sea, California Posts: 8,095	Glenn, I think you idea is sound. You can use HDLink to capture only the M2T files then import those into DV Film Maker, from there directly encode to 24p CineForm AVIs. That will work great. __________________ David Newman -- web: www.gopro.com blog: cineform.blogspot.com -- twitter: twitter.com/David_Newman

January 9th, 2006, 07:47 PM	#37
Glenn Thomas Major Player Join Date: May 2005 Location: Sydney, Australia Posts: 320	Hi David, Sounds great. So the conversion from 4.2.0 to 4.2.2 will still be carried out aswell during the process? I've got a couple of hardware questions aswell, but they're probably more appropriate for the Dual core thread. Glenn

January 9th, 2006, 08:00 PM	#38
David Newman CTO, CineForm Inc. Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Cardiff-by-the-Sea, California Posts: 8,095	Ah, the catch. We do the upconversion filtering only within HDLink and the Premiere capture interface. Within external tools like DV Film Maker, we have to assume that chroma filtering has been performed as it outputs 4:4:4 RGB data (before is it compressed as 4:2:2.) It don't know whether DV Film Maker 4:2:0 to 4:2:2 chroma filtering is as good CineForm's, that will be up to you to judge. __________________ David Newman -- web: www.gopro.com blog: cineform.blogspot.com -- twitter: twitter.com/David_Newman

January 9th, 2006, 08:49 PM	#39
Glenn Thomas Major Player Join Date: May 2005 Location: Sydney, Australia Posts: 320	Ah I see. That's probably why John Jackman captures to Cineform first, and then deinterlaces using DV Film Maker. Although I assume not much would be lost anyway judging by the clip on your website's quality tests page? By the way, how does the 4:2:0 to 4:2:2 chroma filtering work in the Cineform codec? Is it similar to blurring the chroma channel in Vegas using the chroma blur plugin? There's no need to answer this if it's a guarded secret :-) Glenn

January 9th, 2006, 08:58 PM	#40
David Newman CTO, CineForm Inc. Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Cardiff-by-the-Sea, California Posts: 8,095	It is a little more complex that that. :) __________________ David Newman -- web: www.gopro.com blog: cineform.blogspot.com -- twitter: twitter.com/David_Newman

February 26th, 2006, 01:53 PM	#41
Fred Foronda Major Player Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Hawaii Posts: 337	workflow I am using vegas 6c and would like to know if my workflow is correct. I am using the trial version. This is my workflow: capture hdv footage with connect hd-load it up to vegas timeline-edit-then print to hdv tape. I see no difference in quailty when I play it back on my HDTV. Great product!!

February 26th, 2006, 10:20 PM	#42
Luis Otero Major Player Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Fort Dodge, IA Posts: 221	Fred, I use Premiere and the workfow is the same and works perfectly. So I do not see a difference between both workflows. The only difference is that we, the Premiere users, need to use Aspect HD, not Connect HD, for other irrelevant technical reasons. So keep it simple, you are in the right direction... Luis

February 27th, 2006, 08:12 PM	#43
Fred Foronda Major Player Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Hawaii Posts: 337	Need more clarification. When I am done editing on the Vegas time line with the Cineform intermediate codec I can finalize it to SD DVD but for HD as a final destination do I switch back to the original M2T file prior to print to HDV tape?? Thanks

February 28th, 2006, 07:57 PM	#44
Luis Otero Major Player Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Fort Dodge, IA Posts: 221	Fred, I am not too familiar with Vegas. I use it only when Premiere is unable to give me either a transition or an effect that Vegas may have it. However, in Premiere, you do either two things: export to tape (which will decode the intermediate Cineform AVI and transfer it as an m2t file to the deck), or just render it as an itermediate Cineform AVI and use the HDLink to do the decoding and copying to the deck. In my case, I utilize the later since is faster, and I have both files, the intermediate and the transcoded m2t. That is why I love AspectHD in conjunction with Premiere as part of my main workflow! Again, I do not know how Vegas does this function since I do not use it as my primary NLE, but most likely the Cineform Knowledge Database will explain it. If I get a hold of the information, I will post it it for you. Regards, Luis

March 9th, 2006, 12:39 AM	#45
Christopher Glaeser Major Player Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Pleasanton, CA Posts: 258	Need workflow for After Effects and PPro 2 When I export a CineForm avi file from AE 7, the avi file displays properly in Windows Media Player. However, when I import the avi file into a PPro 2 project using Aspect HD mode and drop it on the timeline, it does not display correctly on the monitor (the display is grey with a grid is small dots). Can someone please post an AE to PPro workflow that uses the Aspect HD codec so that I can try and duplicate it on my system. Thanks in advance. Best, Christopher