Cineform support of HVX200 and P2 workflow

Christopher Walker · August 5th, 2006, 10:12 AM

as far as the viewer program, do you mean p2 viewer version 3,0,1,4, ..if this is what you mean, then yes,,, this installed as well as USB drivers and software...latest directx and latest wmp9 codecs.....

like David was saying, I should be able to play mxf files with windows media player 10, partially anyway....I could'nt so I got the latest wm9 codecs but that didn't help...although I have way more output options for wm9 in ppro2

I'm not sure that I have raw .mxf files...I downloaded a mxf file from raylight while I wait for p2 cards to arrive. this files converts to raylight fine...so I believe it is OK.

Waht did you do to fix your problem?...or what was the problem?
Thanks for your time Marty.

David Newman · August 5th, 2006, 11:17 AM

It seems the the P2 Viewer components are not registering. Make sure you are logged in as the Administrator and try the following.

Locate the P2 Viewer "Bin" folder -- it should be here : "C:\Program Files\Panasonic P2\Viewer\bin"

In this directory, make sure you have these files : "PDvcProHDVDec.ax", "PDvcPro50VDec.ax", "PCodecHD.DLL" and "PCodec50.dll" these are most likely the video decoding components.

From a shell type
regsvr32 "C:\Program Files\Panasonic P2\Viewer\bin\PDvcProHDVDec.ax"

These is register the decoder with the system. Tell me what message you get.

Christopher Walker · August 5th, 2006, 11:52 AM

yes all the files are there in that specific directory...

Dll RegisterServier in C:\Program Files\Panasonic P2 \Viewer\bin\PDvcProHDVDec.ax succeeded.

still not seeing .mxf files..... hmmmmmm

David Newman · August 5th, 2006, 12:04 PM

Try registering all the AX and DLL files (just in case.)

Next thing to try is GraphEdit (http://www.digital-digest.com/dvd/do...edit_141.html), this tool lets you see what might be going wrong. From the File menu select "Render Media File...", set the file type to "*.*". See the attached picture for what you should get.

Christopher Walker · August 5th, 2006, 12:25 PM

message ..."could not construct graph from this file":
Have you installed the necessary filters
Note that the render file menu cannot render .grf files.

that is what the software said so
...I tried mpg wav and they all show proper paths..
I wonder if this file has an incorrect extention even though it says it is .mxf... Do you have a raw .mxf file I could use..??
Thanks Dave

David Newman · August 5th, 2006, 12:45 PM

I'll send you are link via email. It could be the graph won't build due to whatever is wrong with the P2 Viewer. Does Panasonic offer support on the P2 Viewer? Maybe they will after you purchase the camera.

More instructions.

1) Open GraphEdit
2) In Graph Menu select "Insert Filters..."
3) Find "DirectShow Filters" and open that folder.
4) Find "Panasonic MXF Source Filter", select it and press "Insert Filter"
5) With the file requestor select your MXF video file (via file type *.*).
6) Find "Panasonic DVCPRO_HD Video Decoder", select it and press "Insert Filter"
7) Press Close.
8) Grab the output pin of the source MXF box (little square box on the right) and draw a line to the input of the decoder.

Do these pins connect?

9) Right click on the output pin of the decoder and select "Render Pin". This should add the video render.

10) if that works press "Play".

Christopher Walker · August 5th, 2006, 02:04 PM

well David....Progress...I got your instructions to work with your skate file but not the DVfilm clip...Obviously that clip is not a raw.mxf file...
I Can open the .mxf file with windows media player...awesome...I can now convert to Cineform common with HDLink....works well..

Go figure, still cannot see .mxf files with P2 Viewer..???
Did the above procedures prove anything to you that I should know???

I already own the cam, I'm just waiting for cards, so I will get panasonic to help me with rest..I would just rather not talk to them, they led me astray for a couple of weeks on another issue...I ended up figuring it out using the forums...way better for troubleshooting...Anyway's, Thank you so much David, Truly Awesome Tech support...Cineform rocks..
I will send you a update on the resolution to the p2 so you have the new info....Warm Regards..Chris Walker

Ali Husain · August 15th, 2006, 05:48 AM

the panasonic driver installation executable does some, um, interesting things during the course of installation: one of them is that it asks you to insert the relevant media (for p2 drivers, the p2 card; for p2 store, the actual p2 drive, etc.). i'm not sure why it is setup this way, and it appears to cause a corrupted installation if you dont' have a PCMCIA slot AND a P2 card handy. i think most desktops dont' have PCMCIA slots so this is a problem.

i went through the driver installation process on a laptop but WITHOUT inserting a P2 card when it asked. i just clicked "okay" but it really didnt' like that, so it complained but i continued. then whenever i tried p2 viewer it ran REALLY SLOWLY. so then i reinvoked driver installation and selected "repair" this time, and DID insert a P2 card when asked, and then everything worked fine after that.

i'm not sure how that helps you on your desktop. perhaps you can try to install the drivers WITH a p2 card on a laptop then read your files from there. my guess is that it will work.

Obin Olson · September 4th, 2006, 03:17 PM

David or anyone. I have a shoot in the morning, client does not need HD and I don't really have enough P2 cards for HD. Can I shoot dvcpro50 widescreen 24p and convert to cineform with the HDlink and edit on our prospect system? will HDlink convert?

David Newman · September 4th, 2006, 03:58 PM

Yes, HDLink will convert DVCPRO-50. HOWEVER, 720pN24 takes up less P2 space at 40Mb/s than DVCPRO-50 at 50Mb/s. So unless you want interlaced, shoot 720pn24.

Obin Olson · September 4th, 2006, 05:22 PM

Thank you David, I learn every day! less bitrate for SD....hmm..makes me wonder, would dvcpro50 look better uprezzed then HD 720?

David Newman · September 4th, 2006, 08:58 PM

No, upressing DVCPRO-50 would look softer than 720p. But an SD production can benefit from the light compression of DVCPRO-50 (yes DVCPRO-HD is much more compressed than DVCPRO-50), however I always prefer the flexibility of HD even for SD work. It is nice to crop video without loosing definition.

Jeff Cottrone · September 8th, 2006, 06:03 PM

I've read through a lot of these posts, but am still uncertain of my answer. I would like to avoid the HDV compression, but P2 is still too expensive and the HD-SDI recording devices aren't mature yet, so I'm trying to understand how the Cineform codec solves the HDV compression problem when it converts from HDV tapes. If I record to tape on a JVC100 camera, it results in like one I-frame and five non-I-frames...so when I convert with Cineform, what does it do to those frames? Does it return all the non-I frames back to I-frames? What exactly is lost through the HDV compression/Cineform conversion process that wouldn't be lost if I recorded thru the HD-SDI port or used the DVCPRO HD codec?

Basically, what are the advantages/disadvantages of the two methods: HDV tape/Cineform conversion vs DVCPRO HD? Data rates? Degree of compression? Color space? Artifacts? Image quality? NLE editing issues?

David Newman · September 8th, 2006, 06:13 PM

CineForm is effectively an I-frame wavelet codec. It is a lot lighter compressed than either HDV or DVCPRO-HD, as a result it is much higher quality for post production workflows. See info on quality here : http://www.cineform.com/technology/quality.htm

Jeff Cottrone · September 8th, 2006, 06:37 PM

David, thanks for the quick response. Wow. Lots of great info to go through. One quick question (sorry if this is on your site). I saw the Wafian, but do you have, or plan to have, a small portable recorder that can ingest directly into the Cineform codec thru the HD-SDI port? Like a couple hours worth of storage in the field to be dumped later at home?

August 5th, 2006, 11:17 AM	#47
David Newman CTO, CineForm Inc. Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Cardiff-by-the-Sea, California Posts: 8,095	It seems the the P2 Viewer components are not registering. Make sure you are logged in as the Administrator and try the following. Locate the P2 Viewer "Bin" folder -- it should be here : "C:\Program Files\Panasonic P2\Viewer\bin" In this directory, make sure you have these files : "PDvcProHDVDec.ax", "PDvcPro50VDec.ax", "PCodecHD.DLL" and "PCodec50.dll" these are most likely the video decoding components. From a shell type regsvr32 "C:\Program Files\Panasonic P2\Viewer\bin\PDvcProHDVDec.ax" These is register the decoder with the system. Tell me what message you get. __________________ David Newman -- web: www.gopro.com blog: cineform.blogspot.com -- twitter: twitter.com/David_Newman

August 5th, 2006, 12:04 PM	#49
David Newman CTO, CineForm Inc. Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Cardiff-by-the-Sea, California Posts: 8,095	Try registering all the AX and DLL files (just in case.) Next thing to try is GraphEdit (http://www.digital-digest.com/dvd/do...edit_141.html), this tool lets you see what might be going wrong. From the File menu select "Render Media File...", set the file type to ".". See the attached picture for what you should get. Attached Thumbnails __________________ David Newman -- web: www.gopro.com blog: cineform.blogspot.com -- twitter: twitter.com/David_Newman

August 5th, 2006, 12:45 PM	#51
David Newman CTO, CineForm Inc. Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Cardiff-by-the-Sea, California Posts: 8,095	I'll send you are link via email. It could be the graph won't build due to whatever is wrong with the P2 Viewer. Does Panasonic offer support on the P2 Viewer? Maybe they will after you purchase the camera. More instructions. 1) Open GraphEdit 2) In Graph Menu select "Insert Filters..." 3) Find "DirectShow Filters" and open that folder. 4) Find "Panasonic MXF Source Filter", select it and press "Insert Filter" 5) With the file requestor select your MXF video file (via file type .). 6) Find "Panasonic DVCPRO_HD Video Decoder", select it and press "Insert Filter" 7) Press Close. 8) Grab the output pin of the source MXF box (little square box on the right) and draw a line to the input of the decoder. Do these pins connect? 9) Right click on the output pin of the decoder and select "Render Pin". This should add the video render. 10) if that works press "Play". __________________ David Newman -- web: www.gopro.com blog: cineform.blogspot.com -- twitter: twitter.com/David_Newman

September 4th, 2006, 03:17 PM	#54
Obin Olson Trustee Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Wilmington NC Posts: 1,414	HDlink work with dvcpro50 widescreen? David or anyone. I have a shoot in the morning, client does not need HD and I don't really have enough P2 cards for HD. Can I shoot dvcpro50 widescreen 24p and convert to cineform with the HDlink and edit on our prospect system? will HDlink convert?

September 4th, 2006, 03:58 PM	#55
David Newman CTO, CineForm Inc. Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Cardiff-by-the-Sea, California Posts: 8,095	Yes, HDLink will convert DVCPRO-50. HOWEVER, 720pN24 takes up less P2 space at 40Mb/s than DVCPRO-50 at 50Mb/s. So unless you want interlaced, shoot 720pn24. __________________ David Newman -- web: www.gopro.com blog: cineform.blogspot.com -- twitter: twitter.com/David_Newman

August 5th, 2006, 10:12 AM	#46
Christopher Walker New Boot Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: nanaimo B.C. Canada Posts: 15	as far as the viewer program, do you mean p2 viewer version 3,0,1,4, ..if this is what you mean, then yes,,, this installed as well as USB drivers and software...latest directx and latest wmp9 codecs..... like David was saying, I should be able to play mxf files with windows media player 10, partially anyway....I could'nt so I got the latest wm9 codecs but that didn't help...although I have way more output options for wm9 in ppro2 I'm not sure that I have raw .mxf files...I downloaded a mxf file from raylight while I wait for p2 cards to arrive. this files converts to raylight fine...so I believe it is OK. Waht did you do to fix your problem?...or what was the problem? Thanks for your time Marty.

August 5th, 2006, 11:52 AM	#48
Christopher Walker New Boot Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: nanaimo B.C. Canada Posts: 15	yes all the files are there in that specific directory... Dll RegisterServier in C:\Program Files\Panasonic P2 \Viewer\bin\PDvcProHDVDec.ax succeeded. still not seeing .mxf files..... hmmmmmm

August 5th, 2006, 12:25 PM	#50
Christopher Walker New Boot Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: nanaimo B.C. Canada Posts: 15	message ..."could not construct graph from this file": Have you installed the necessary filters Note that the render file menu cannot render .grf files. that is what the software said so ...I tried mpg wav and they all show proper paths.. I wonder if this file has an incorrect extention even though it says it is .mxf... Do you have a raw .mxf file I could use..?? Thanks Dave

August 5th, 2006, 02:04 PM	#52
Christopher Walker New Boot Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: nanaimo B.C. Canada Posts: 15	well David....Progress...I got your instructions to work with your skate file but not the DVfilm clip...Obviously that clip is not a raw.mxf file... I Can open the .mxf file with windows media player...awesome...I can now convert to Cineform common with HDLink....works well.. Go figure, still cannot see .mxf files with P2 Viewer..??? Did the above procedures prove anything to you that I should know??? I already own the cam, I'm just waiting for cards, so I will get panasonic to help me with rest..I would just rather not talk to them, they led me astray for a couple of weeks on another issue...I ended up figuring it out using the forums...way better for troubleshooting...Anyway's, Thank you so much David, Truly Awesome Tech support...Cineform rocks.. I will send you a update on the resolution to the p2 so you have the new info....Warm Regards..Chris Walker

August 15th, 2006, 05:48 AM	#53
Ali Husain Regular Crew Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: San Jose, CA Posts: 141	the panasonic driver installation executable does some, um, interesting things during the course of installation: one of them is that it asks you to insert the relevant media (for p2 drivers, the p2 card; for p2 store, the actual p2 drive, etc.). i'm not sure why it is setup this way, and it appears to cause a corrupted installation if you dont' have a PCMCIA slot AND a P2 card handy. i think most desktops dont' have PCMCIA slots so this is a problem. i went through the driver installation process on a laptop but WITHOUT inserting a P2 card when it asked. i just clicked "okay" but it really didnt' like that, so it complained but i continued. then whenever i tried p2 viewer it ran REALLY SLOWLY. so then i reinvoked driver installation and selected "repair" this time, and DID insert a P2 card when asked, and then everything worked fine after that. i'm not sure how that helps you on your desktop. perhaps you can try to install the drivers WITH a p2 card on a laptop then read your files from there. my guess is that it will work.

September 4th, 2006, 05:22 PM	#56
Obin Olson Trustee Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Wilmington NC Posts: 1,414	Thank you David, I learn every day! less bitrate for SD....hmm..makes me wonder, would dvcpro50 look better uprezzed then HD 720?

September 4th, 2006, 08:58 PM	#57
David Newman CTO, CineForm Inc. Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Cardiff-by-the-Sea, California Posts: 8,095	No, upressing DVCPRO-50 would look softer than 720p. But an SD production can benefit from the light compression of DVCPRO-50 (yes DVCPRO-HD is much more compressed than DVCPRO-50), however I always prefer the flexibility of HD even for SD work. It is nice to crop video without loosing definition. __________________ David Newman -- web: www.gopro.com blog: cineform.blogspot.com -- twitter: twitter.com/David_Newman

September 8th, 2006, 06:03 PM	#58
Jeff Cottrone Regular Crew Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Rochester, NY Posts: 100	Cineform conversion of HDV vs DVCPRO HD I've read through a lot of these posts, but am still uncertain of my answer. I would like to avoid the HDV compression, but P2 is still too expensive and the HD-SDI recording devices aren't mature yet, so I'm trying to understand how the Cineform codec solves the HDV compression problem when it converts from HDV tapes. If I record to tape on a JVC100 camera, it results in like one I-frame and five non-I-frames...so when I convert with Cineform, what does it do to those frames? Does it return all the non-I frames back to I-frames? What exactly is lost through the HDV compression/Cineform conversion process that wouldn't be lost if I recorded thru the HD-SDI port or used the DVCPRO HD codec? Basically, what are the advantages/disadvantages of the two methods: HDV tape/Cineform conversion vs DVCPRO HD? Data rates? Degree of compression? Color space? Artifacts? Image quality? NLE editing issues?

September 8th, 2006, 06:13 PM	#59
David Newman CTO, CineForm Inc. Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Cardiff-by-the-Sea, California Posts: 8,095	CineForm is effectively an I-frame wavelet codec. It is a lot lighter compressed than either HDV or DVCPRO-HD, as a result it is much higher quality for post production workflows. See info on quality here : http://www.cineform.com/technology/quality.htm __________________ David Newman -- web: www.gopro.com blog: cineform.blogspot.com -- twitter: twitter.com/David_Newman

September 8th, 2006, 06:37 PM	#60
Jeff Cottrone Regular Crew Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Rochester, NY Posts: 100	David, thanks for the quick response. Wow. Lots of great info to go through. One quick question (sorry if this is on your site). I saw the Wafian, but do you have, or plan to have, a small portable recorder that can ingest directly into the Cineform codec thru the HD-SDI port? Like a couple hours worth of storage in the field to be dumped later at home?