720 60p conversion at DVinfo.net

Jeff Harper · June 24th, 2011, 01:15 PM

I have converted my 720 60p footage to 16:9 avis using HDlink, but there is no setting to change frame rate to 30 during the conversion process, which I believe needs to happen, unless I'm wrong.

Anyway, as a result I have avis that are 480 60i, which is likely the cause of flickering in Vegas, am I right? This intermittent flickering ends up in the final render, as found with the last project I completed. For that project I re-converted to progressive and rendered from Vegas to mpeg progressive, and it seemed to solve the issue, but I'm told the final 30p DVD will not be compatible with many players.

What is the proper optimum way to convert 720 60p for editing and for final use on a DVD? Anyone know? I do not wish for any kind of look, simply a great looking video that will play on most DVD players.

Any help would be appreciated. I have posted simlar pleas for help with previous project, but it was mixed footage, this is all 720 60p. I am just really slow on the uptake with this topic.

David Newman · June 24th, 2011, 03:07 PM

Just place 720p60 on a 30p timeline, the NLE does the rest. DVD at 30p, that sounds that nonsense, I've only ever encoded progressive DVDs for 100s for different players.

Jeff Harper · June 24th, 2011, 05:46 PM

David, thanks. Lots of misinformation out here, isn't there? So I need to encode with HD Link to 720 HD and not resize to 16:9 then, correct? My shoots are 4 camera, so I must do some kind of conversion.

David Newman · June 24th, 2011, 06:43 PM

How do you have 720p60 footage that is not 16:9?

Jeff Harper · June 24th, 2011, 07:08 PM

David, you had said to drop 720p footage onto the timeline, and because there are separate 720 and sizes listed 16:9 in the encoder, I was confused. I just encoded it (again) to 720 HD, but I suppose I need to stop and start again using 16:9 setting.

Damn, I'm tired of doing things two and three times.

David Newman · June 24th, 2011, 10:32 PM

I have no clue what you are doing. Why resize anything? I have no idea what this means: "there are separate 720 and sizes listed 16:9 in the encoder", this is only one 1280x720 option in HDLink, and you shouldn't need it if your source is 1280x720 already.

Jeff Harper · June 24th, 2011, 11:39 PM

1280 x 720 does not fill the screen when it's on my 16:9 480 timeline, there are bars on the side. So I assumed I should convert and resize using the NTSC 16:9 setting in HD Link, not to leave it at 1280 x 720.

I had asked originally "What is the proper optimum way to convert 720 60p for editing and for final use on a DVD?" and you said "Just place 720p60 on a 30p timeline..."

1280 x 720 60p does not fit the screen properly on a 480 (NTSC 16:9) timeline, unless I crop the footage while it's on the timeline in Vegas, so this is is a bit of confusing to me, I would think I would want to use HD link to resize, not Vegas. But you say I don't need to resize. This is confusing the heck out of me.

Is there, somewhere, step by step directions with pictures showing the settings needed for various conversions for going from HD to SD, or is this the way it's done, by trial and error? Is 1280 x 720 the same as 480 (NTSC 16:9)? If it is, why doesn't it look the same in my preview window, and why are there black bars on the side when my timeline is set to NTSC 16:9 rather than 1280 x 720?

David Newman · June 25th, 2011, 12:15 AM

Just use a 720p30 timeline. Export to DVD from that. 1280x720 is 16:9, don't let any NLE tell you otherwise.

Jeff Harper · June 25th, 2011, 05:28 AM

David, here is what 1280 x 720 looks like on 480 16:9 DVD.

Jeff Harper · June 25th, 2011, 06:07 AM

1280 x720 means square pixels and is for HD, not DVD; it is not the same as 480 16:9. The PAR when using a 16:9timeline is 1.2121, not square.

Am I wrong? If I follow your instructions I get black bars when I make DVD. I know that because I just did it. You have a separate NTSC 16:9 setting in HD Link, apparently I need to use it, even though you don't agree.

That is unless I use a NTSC 16:9 timeline with the 720p Cineform files, and crop the footage on the Vegas timeline after having just converted it. Which on the surface doesn't make sense, but what do I know? It just seems silly as the whole purpose of conversion is to make it suitable for DVD, not Hd. Maybe that is the best thing to do, I don't know.

Jeff Harper · June 25th, 2011, 06:13 AM

After looking around the net, it seems the best thing is to crop the footage in Vegas, because 720 footage on a NTSC DVD has black bars unless it is stretched by the TV, which may or may not happend depending on the TV settings.

David Newman · June 25th, 2011, 08:59 AM

16:9 only is supposed to fill 704x480 of an NTSC frame, useless you don't mind a very small amount of image distortion or image crop. Even at 704x480 you should not see black borders on a TV.

480 / 1.212121 * 16 / 9 = 704.

720x480 SD is not 16:9 -- I'm sure you are not the only one surprised by this.

Jeff Harper · June 25th, 2011, 09:27 AM

David, so if I take this all the way through for creating a DVD with 720 60p footage:

1. With HD Link, create an intermediate and do not resize using the 16:9 setting but leave the size as is. Leave progressive, do not interlace.

2. Bring intermediate onto a 16:9 30p timline as shown in attached image.

3. Crop footage on timeline to fill screen.

4. Edit project.

5. Render out to 16:9 30p as in attached image. (30p footage will work fine on DVD without adding pulldown flags, right? I don't have the ability to add pulldown flags for 30p, anyway, but I'm just checking). Mind you I don't know what I'm talking about, I just know that for 24p pulldown flags are normally added when using Vegas, there is not such option with 30p renders, at least in Vegas.

6. Import file into DVD authoring program, etc.

Does this sound right?

David Newman · June 25th, 2011, 09:48 AM

Yes. 3 is optional.

Jeff Harper · June 25th, 2011, 10:14 AM

Thank you very much!

June 24th, 2011, 01:15 PM	#1
Jeff Harper Inner Circle Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Cincinnati, OH Posts: 8,425	720 60p conversion I have converted my 720 60p footage to 16:9 avis using HDlink, but there is no setting to change frame rate to 30 during the conversion process, which I believe needs to happen, unless I'm wrong. Anyway, as a result I have avis that are 480 60i, which is likely the cause of flickering in Vegas, am I right? This intermittent flickering ends up in the final render, as found with the last project I completed. For that project I re-converted to progressive and rendered from Vegas to mpeg progressive, and it seemed to solve the issue, but I'm told the final 30p DVD will not be compatible with many players. What is the proper optimum way to convert 720 60p for editing and for final use on a DVD? Anyone know? I do not wish for any kind of look, simply a great looking video that will play on most DVD players. Any help would be appreciated. I have posted simlar pleas for help with previous project, but it was mixed footage, this is all 720 60p. I am just really slow on the uptake with this topic. __________________ "The horror of what I saw on the timeline cannot be described."

June 24th, 2011, 03:07 PM	#2
David Newman CTO, CineForm Inc. Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Cardiff-by-the-Sea, California Posts: 8,095	Re: 720 60p conversion Just place 720p60 on a 30p timeline, the NLE does the rest. DVD at 30p, that sounds that nonsense, I've only ever encoded progressive DVDs for 100s for different players. __________________ David Newman -- web: www.gopro.com blog: cineform.blogspot.com -- twitter: twitter.com/David_Newman

June 24th, 2011, 05:46 PM	#3
Jeff Harper Inner Circle Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Cincinnati, OH Posts: 8,425	Re: 720 60p conversion David, thanks. Lots of misinformation out here, isn't there? So I need to encode with HD Link to 720 HD and not resize to 16:9 then, correct? My shoots are 4 camera, so I must do some kind of conversion. __________________ "The horror of what I saw on the timeline cannot be described."

June 24th, 2011, 06:43 PM	#4
David Newman CTO, CineForm Inc. Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Cardiff-by-the-Sea, California Posts: 8,095	Re: 720 60p conversion How do you have 720p60 footage that is not 16:9? __________________ David Newman -- web: www.gopro.com blog: cineform.blogspot.com -- twitter: twitter.com/David_Newman

June 24th, 2011, 07:08 PM	#5
Jeff Harper Inner Circle Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Cincinnati, OH Posts: 8,425	Re: 720 60p conversion David, you had said to drop 720p footage onto the timeline, and because there are separate 720 and sizes listed 16:9 in the encoder, I was confused. I just encoded it (again) to 720 HD, but I suppose I need to stop and start again using 16:9 setting. Damn, I'm tired of doing things two and three times. __________________ "The horror of what I saw on the timeline cannot be described."

June 24th, 2011, 10:32 PM	#6
David Newman CTO, CineForm Inc. Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Cardiff-by-the-Sea, California Posts: 8,095	Re: 720 60p conversion I have no clue what you are doing. Why resize anything? I have no idea what this means: "there are separate 720 and sizes listed 16:9 in the encoder", this is only one 1280x720 option in HDLink, and you shouldn't need it if your source is 1280x720 already. __________________ David Newman -- web: www.gopro.com blog: cineform.blogspot.com -- twitter: twitter.com/David_Newman

June 24th, 2011, 11:39 PM	#7
Jeff Harper Inner Circle Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Cincinnati, OH Posts: 8,425	Re: 720 60p conversion 1280 x 720 does not fill the screen when it's on my 16:9 480 timeline, there are bars on the side. So I assumed I should convert and resize using the NTSC 16:9 setting in HD Link, not to leave it at 1280 x 720. I had asked originally "What is the proper optimum way to convert 720 60p for editing and for final use on a DVD?" and you said "Just place 720p60 on a 30p timeline..." 1280 x 720 60p does not fit the screen properly on a 480 (NTSC 16:9) timeline, unless I crop the footage while it's on the timeline in Vegas, so this is is a bit of confusing to me, I would think I would want to use HD link to resize, not Vegas. But you say I don't need to resize. This is confusing the heck out of me. Is there, somewhere, step by step directions with pictures showing the settings needed for various conversions for going from HD to SD, or is this the way it's done, by trial and error? Is 1280 x 720 the same as 480 (NTSC 16:9)? If it is, why doesn't it look the same in my preview window, and why are there black bars on the side when my timeline is set to NTSC 16:9 rather than 1280 x 720? __________________ "The horror of what I saw on the timeline cannot be described." Last edited by Jeff Harper; June 25th, 2011 at 08:18 AM.

June 25th, 2011, 12:15 AM	#8
David Newman CTO, CineForm Inc. Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Cardiff-by-the-Sea, California Posts: 8,095	Re: 720 60p conversion Just use a 720p30 timeline. Export to DVD from that. 1280x720 is 16:9, don't let any NLE tell you otherwise. __________________ David Newman -- web: www.gopro.com blog: cineform.blogspot.com -- twitter: twitter.com/David_Newman

June 25th, 2011, 05:28 AM	#9
Jeff Harper Inner Circle Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Cincinnati, OH Posts: 8,425	Re: 720 60p conversion David, here is what 1280 x 720 looks like on 480 16:9 DVD. Attached Thumbnails __________________ "The horror of what I saw on the timeline cannot be described." Last edited by Jeff Harper; June 25th, 2011 at 08:18 AM.

June 25th, 2011, 06:07 AM	#10
Jeff Harper Inner Circle Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Cincinnati, OH Posts: 8,425	Re: 720 60p conversion 1280 x720 means square pixels and is for HD, not DVD; it is not the same as 480 16:9. The PAR when using a 16:9timeline is 1.2121, not square. Am I wrong? If I follow your instructions I get black bars when I make DVD. I know that because I just did it. You have a separate NTSC 16:9 setting in HD Link, apparently I need to use it, even though you don't agree. That is unless I use a NTSC 16:9 timeline with the 720p Cineform files, and crop the footage on the Vegas timeline after having just converted it. Which on the surface doesn't make sense, but what do I know? It just seems silly as the whole purpose of conversion is to make it suitable for DVD, not Hd. Maybe that is the best thing to do, I don't know. __________________ "The horror of what I saw on the timeline cannot be described." Last edited by Jeff Harper; June 25th, 2011 at 08:19 AM.

June 25th, 2011, 06:13 AM	#11
Jeff Harper Inner Circle Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Cincinnati, OH Posts: 8,425	Re: 720 60p conversion After looking around the net, it seems the best thing is to crop the footage in Vegas, because 720 footage on a NTSC DVD has black bars unless it is stretched by the TV, which may or may not happend depending on the TV settings. __________________ "The horror of what I saw on the timeline cannot be described." Last edited by Jeff Harper; June 25th, 2011 at 08:38 AM.

June 25th, 2011, 08:59 AM	#12
David Newman CTO, CineForm Inc. Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Cardiff-by-the-Sea, California Posts: 8,095	Re: 720 60p conversion 16:9 only is supposed to fill 704x480 of an NTSC frame, useless you don't mind a very small amount of image distortion or image crop. Even at 704x480 you should not see black borders on a TV. 480 / 1.212121 * 16 / 9 = 704. 720x480 SD is not 16:9 -- I'm sure you are not the only one surprised by this. __________________ David Newman -- web: www.gopro.com blog: cineform.blogspot.com -- twitter: twitter.com/David_Newman

June 25th, 2011, 09:27 AM	#13
Jeff Harper Inner Circle Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Cincinnati, OH Posts: 8,425	Re: 720 60p conversion David, so if I take this all the way through for creating a DVD with 720 60p footage: 1. With HD Link, create an intermediate and do not resize using the 16:9 setting but leave the size as is. Leave progressive, do not interlace. 2. Bring intermediate onto a 16:9 30p timline as shown in attached image. 3. Crop footage on timeline to fill screen. 4. Edit project. 5. Render out to 16:9 30p as in attached image. (30p footage will work fine on DVD without adding pulldown flags, right? I don't have the ability to add pulldown flags for 30p, anyway, but I'm just checking). Mind you I don't know what I'm talking about, I just know that for 24p pulldown flags are normally added when using Vegas, there is not such option with 30p renders, at least in Vegas. 6. Import file into DVD authoring program, etc. Does this sound right? Attached Thumbnails __________________ "The horror of what I saw on the timeline cannot be described."

June 25th, 2011, 09:48 AM	#14
David Newman CTO, CineForm Inc. Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Cardiff-by-the-Sea, California Posts: 8,095	Re: 720 60p conversion Yes. 3 is optional. __________________ David Newman -- web: www.gopro.com blog: cineform.blogspot.com -- twitter: twitter.com/David_Newman

June 25th, 2011, 10:14 AM	#15
Jeff Harper Inner Circle Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Cincinnati, OH Posts: 8,425	Re: 720 60p conversion Thank you very much! __________________ "The horror of what I saw on the timeline cannot be described."