5D footage coverted via Neoscene won't sync with Z5 native

[Jake Segraves]

jonathan is going to send me some sample files from each of the cameras. i'm hoping to reproduce the issue here in the cineform offices by comparing the 2 converted files. if we do find that there's a sync issue with the converted files, we'll certainly look into what is causing that... and offer a solution. : )

[Cliff Etzel]

This is a known issue.

I initially tested and confirmed with Cineform - even Tech support has confirmed. Any product using HDlink will cut off frames at beginning and end of clips. Audio is also not in sync - I have since sold my Cineform NeoScene License for this very reason - response from Cineform Tech support - edit native m2t footage until they come up with a solution.

That's not good enough IMO.

DNxHD intermediates are frame accurate rendered with MPEG Stream Clip using the MPEG-2 reader for QT and m2t files I'm working with.

This doesn't work for AVCHD clips - use TEMPEnc to get your DNxHD Intermediates from MTS clips - it's a better solution IMO - and truly cross platform.

Tested and confirmed over 2 days of testing.

[Bob Hart]

I may be causing a confusion with this comment but here goes anyway.

My personal preference is to convert all camera sources to the one filetype and not mix different file types in the one project.

If I read correctly, the Canon 5D footage was converted, the other camera Z5 HDV footage was left as a native camera file, m2t I guess.

[Jake Segraves]

Originally Posted by Cliff Etzel

This is a known issue.

I initially tested and confirmed with Cineform - even Tech support has confirmed. Any product using HDlink will cut off frames at beginning and end of clips. Audio is also not in sync - I have since sold my Cineform NeoScene License for this very reason - response from Cineform Tech support - edit native m2t footage until they come up with a solution.

That's not good enough IMO.

DNxHD intermediates are frame accurate rendered with MPEG Stream Clip using the MPEG-2 reader for QT and m2t files I'm working with.

This doesn't work for AVCHD clips - use TEMPEnc to get your DNxHD Intermediates from MTS clips - it's a better solution IMO - and truly cross platform.

Tested and confirmed over 2 days of testing.

this could be a different issue, cliff. its true i was able to confirm your issue with the sample files you provided. however, your files were converted from the Z7U. jonathan's files are converted from 5D. No one else is reporting conversion issues with the 5D and we have thousands of users converting these files. what i'd like to find out, is if there is something unique to the 25fps files that jonathan is shooting and the way hdlink is converting them. i'd love to compare these to the original 5D mov and the Z5 clips. then we can confirm/deny that this is the same issue.

[Alex Raskin]

Originally Posted by Bob Hart

My personal preference is to convert all camera sources to the one filetype and not mix different file types in the one project.

Used to be my workflow, too.

But it seems that the latest Premiere CS5 now allows for freer mixing of the different file types without the usual trouble that'd persist in the earlier NLE versions.

/more confusion...

[Jonathon Fowler]

I'm currently editing another shoot and, after further analysis I can advise you of the following. My Z5 and 5D video footage sync perfectly over a 12 minute clip. The Cineform file does not sync. I have all 3 on the timeline and the Cineform file is visually and audibly out of sync. The Z5 (HDV) and 5D (Mov) files sync perfectly frame by frame for the full 12 minutes. So no clock issues here.

I have also noticed that the audio is a MAJOR problem here. The audio on the converted Neoscene clip is totally out of sync with the video in THE SAME CLIP..... this is odd and basically renders the software useless to me unless a Cineform can resolve this matter.

I have requested FTP details to send these large files for analysis, unfortunatley Cineform don;t have working FTP, so I am perplexed as to how this matter can be addressed!

I'm gonna look at other solutions and perhaps get a refund if Cineform can;t resolve this matter, i don;t have the time or will power to spend much more time using this software.

[David Newman]

Use yousendit.com . There are many services to send large amounts of data, as this is not happening generally, we know your sources will tell us why.

[Jonathon Fowler]

yousendit.com is limited to files under 2GB - the files i am happy to send are 12 minutes long and therefore larger than 2GB. I tried your FTP last night (after being told you didn;t have a FTP server which was available) and I got up this morning to find the server at your end had closed the connection. Not very useful.

Also, Jake has advised he is trying to replicate the problem with a 7D and v5 of Neoscene. I use a 5D and v4 of Neoscene. I appreciate Jake is trying to assist but i think that the key here is viewing my original files.

When you see the converted file and compare to the originals you will see what I mean. I would hope that you will then offer some kind of way of putting the matter right as Jake suggested in a previous post. Or refund my money?

[Stephen Armour]

Some words of advice for you Jonathan.

Since there are many thousands of users of Cineform's products and they have a very good track record of working through bugs and user problems, I'd suggest that if your workflow permits, you would do yourself and others a service by showing a bit of patience and helping to identify where the problems actually lay.

You will be hard-pressed to find any other company where the CTO of the company is helping a single user discover his or her problems! Cineform certainly wants happy users too, and believe me, there are many thousands that have used this forum that fall in that category.

[Jonathon Fowler]

Thanks for your advice, but I think i have been very patient. I am not really interested in how Cineform have dealt with others, only how they respond to the issues i have encountered, which to date have been below my expectations and below the level I have experienced with other software companies.

One thing i will also point out to you and anyone else reading this forum is that although I have encountered issues with other software, those issues are ALWAYS down to me not liking the usability of that software. Maybe i have just been lucky, but i have never encountered an issue where the actual software doesn't do what it is supposed to.

This issue with Neoscene is the first problem i have ever encountered where it si a problem with the actual software. Like I say, maybe i'm just lucky, or perhaps I just use software which works properly - time will tell.

Also, some of the responses, or lack of them, from Cineform have been disappointing.

But i am hoping that they will resolve this isssue as the software, when working properly, will help my workflow. Sadly at the moment this software, for me, does the opposite.

So again, thanks for your response, but I think I'll make up my own mind about Cineform.

[Alex Raskin]

Hey Jonathon. I think you are right about making your own mind based on your own experience. Maybe Steven just tried to encourage you by saying that most of the time Cineform comes through brilliantly - which certainly has been my own experience as well. Have hope.

[David Newman]

Please try sending shorter files, or is the fault only in 12 minute captures? We really can't do anything without seeing your source files as they are showing the issue, not other files from other cameras. We can't reproduce the error here, nor can others. Have you tried NeoScene v5, as there is no v4 version, I guess you mean v1.4? If NeoScene v5 solves your issue then we will get you a free upgrade.

[Jonathon Fowler]

It's either Neoscene 1.3 or 1.4, can't tell from the HD Link interface. No matter, I do know it's not V5.

Just been checking the file and this may help further: the video in the Cineform file syncs perfectly, its the audio which is fooked. The audio track isn't grouped to the video, and the audio is now longer than the video. So the conversion of the audio is the probelm, the video is fine.

the reason I haven't noted this before is that all my Cineform footage was used for cutaways during wedding speeches and vows, so it wasn't essential to sync the video as much as the audio - I could get away with the visual part being out of sync. However the current edit includes video of a band singing, and within a few frames you can see the audio going out of sync, even on the Cineform file alone! When I sync the cineform video track from the 5D to the video track of the Z5, all is well and stays in sync,even over a 12 minute clip. It's the audio which is the issue.

I am happy to try V5 David - can i trial this without unistalling my current version? If V5 works then an upgrade would be appreciated and alot less hassle than uploading files, big files, over FTP.

[Perrone Ford]

I'm curious if the issue you see is one I've seen in the past. Where the the audio was out exactly 6 frames. And you can't line it up either at the head or the tail because it's actually truncated. It appeared to me, if I remember correctly, that the audio was truncated, and then padded so that it was longer than the original, but not in sync if placed head to head with the video or tail to tail with the video.

[Alex Raskin]

What is your level of CFHD compression?

It looks like, depending on PC resources, audio can slip against video at higher quality level.

I just experienced that on two files that I was recording by SI2K camera in Quality 4 RAW (equivalent to Filmscan 2, I think.)

Do you still get audio going out of sync if you convert your files into CFHD Filmscan 1? Or High?