Vegas9d/FirstLight Histogram Difference at DVinfo.net

Jonathan Gentry · April 28th, 2010, 07:08 PM

When I work over the colors/contrast etc in FL and view the same clip in Vegas the histogram is shifted to the right and the image reflects a more washed out black level.

How do I get the same results in Vegas that I see in FirstLight?

David Newman · April 28th, 2010, 07:56 PM

Learn about Sony Vegas colorspare here Glennchan.info

Chris Barcellos · April 28th, 2010, 08:27 PM

David:

I just bought NeoHd with light room, and for first time last night, I started looking at my Canon 5D "Lightroomed" footage in Vegas. There is a huge difference in the preview window, and I am not sure what you are suggesting we do to get proper levels in our finished product. What is Cineforms suggestion on handling footage corrected in Lightroom? How are we supposed to get the effect the way have adjusted in Lightroom. Referring users to a rather convoluted article is not really a satisfactory answer in my opinion. Will things be resolved for Vegas users ? Lightroom stuff looks good in Window Media Player output.

David Newman · April 28th, 2010, 08:37 PM

You mean FirstLight not LightRoom, different tools.

Vegas has the wrong display black and white levels within the desktop (weird design choice I spent way too much time explaining.) Read the link above. So you can't color correct in Vegas as is, you have to use a calibrated external monitoring or add the video system to computer RGB conversion filter. FirstLight is correct on the desktop and for external monitoring.

Keith Paisley · April 29th, 2010, 09:14 AM

From my understanding of that Glenn Chan article, all cineform .avi files decode to sRGB levels on the Vegas timeline, and according to the scopes, this appears to be the case.

also according to that Glenn Chan article, quicktime .mov files (in my case, sourced from a 5D Mk II) decode to cRGB. Again, according to the scopes, this is what I'm seeing.

Theoretically, 5D Mk II files that have been converted to cineform avis should be essentially identical in terms of levels (after restoring the CF file to cRGB levels), but this is not what I've been seeing.

To test this, I created a full range 32-bit floating point project in Vegas, and I dropped a cineform avi on the timeline, and the source .mov file directly beneath it. Then I applied an sRGB to cRGB level correction filter to the cineform .avi. There should be visually almost no difference between the level-corrected cineform .avi and the source .mov file, correct? If so, then I think there is something wrong somewhere.

the majority of my output is headed for web consumption, so I generally desire full range level for my output. If I apply standard sRGB to cRGB filters to cineform .avis, I get poor results. What am I doing wrong or is this something in the encode/decode chain that needs to be fixed?

David Newman · April 29th, 2010, 09:31 AM

Canon files are wrong, we fix them to standard luma ranges during conversion. You should not apply "sRGB to cRGB" for exports only for desktop monitoring.

Chris Barcellos · April 29th, 2010, 10:43 AM

Please pardon my mixup on First Light.

First, the original post was about Vegas 9, and the link David provided was about Vegas 8. To confuse things more, there is a link on that page, that does go to Vegas 9 treatment, and that adds to the confusion. There appear to be different recommendations in each page.

In addition, in order to get Vegas 9d to handle Cineform files without long term lockup, I had to do a known avi plugin .dll replacement that has been used as a fix in situation where Cineform has been crashing in the past.

With Vegas 9d and with First Light as a comparison, there is a significant difference on the on screen preview. I have seen some differences before, and always adjusted level using the scopes, but this appears to be more exaggerated than I have ever seen.

Okay, so what does this all mean to me. All I want is to my preview window in Vegas to reflect what shows up in the First Light preview when I run the rendered file outside of Vegas. And when I drop a raw file that I converted to Cineform, I want it to show on the Vegas preview Window, the same as it does in First Light preview window. And of course, I want all of that, without affecting my resulting output and having it turn out flawed.

The Chan article seems to imply that no matter what we do, we can't depend on it. So my simple request is are some straight answers:

1. Is the result I am seeking only obtainable through output to external monitor ? If so, how do you set that up ? With my dual monitor set up, for instance, if I push the monitor icon at the top of the Vegas preview, it takes one of my monitors and dedicates it solely to Vegas preview. Is that what you are referring to ?

2. Does Cineform have support page anywhere that gives you a step by step tutorial telling you how set things up to operate properly in Vegas, and if so, has it been updated to cover Vegas 9d settings in to get that result.

I have been using Cineform for several years, because, in my mind, it always eased the need for getting into deeply technical adjustments, and perhaps that is naive. I am not a video engineer by any means. I am wagering that there are a lot of us out there like that, and the more a product requires us to enter our editing applications and make subtle adjustments in obsure places in the software, the less appealing the product is going to be. If Cineform knows there is an issue with a major NLE, it would seem that some sort of plugin should be developed and employed for the user to resolve the problem, for the benefit of its customers and the advancement of the product.

David Newman · April 29th, 2010, 11:15 AM

If you not using an AJA or Blackmagic card in Vegas, I'm not sure how you can color correct accurately, but the this the same for all NLEs, but in Vegas it is more true as the desktop is more wrong if you are not extra careful. We are not a plugin to Vegas, the codec works as it would anywhere, in Vegas it is asked for Studio RGB, and we honor that. So you questions are not for CineForm, but for the Sony Vegas team. I'm not aware that they have changed things in 9d that impacts preview, although I understand the 32-bit float does have a 0 black level (correct) but confusing thing more for the end user (as 8-bit is at 16.) I have not looked, but I would hope Sony had a white paper that explains all of this.

On the stability issues in Vegas 9d (as compared to 9c) that is something Sony is working on, our VfW codec support in Vegas hasn't changed much in years, as a standard component, there is not much we can change.

Paul Cascio · April 29th, 2010, 12:21 PM

Wow, glad I stumbled across this thread. I just completed a Vegas project that caused tremendous frustration because the finished DVD had an image that was harsh and contrasty. I had to overcorrect in Vegas to get the finished product to look good. Leading me to several questions as I'm considering upgrading from Neo Scene to Neo HD.

1. If I use an Instensity card to monitor, would I get proper outpout?

2. Regarding the sRGB > cRGB filter, do I activate during editing and THEN remove it before rendering?

3. Would a firewire output provide realistic images?

Chris Barcellos · April 29th, 2010, 02:24 PM

Dave:

Just for your benefit, the attached photo dipicts a typical difference I am seeing with 9d.

Also, to resolve the slow function and file recognition by Vegas of Cineform files, I did a dll replace in Vegas 9 d as set forth in this Vegas forum note, and it sped everything up, and it fixed that problem:

http://www.custcenter.com/cgi-bin/so...p?p_faqid=4558

David Newman · April 29th, 2010, 03:21 PM

Chris, That picture highlights what I consider to be a bug in the Vegas workflow (as Paul found.) The Histogram shows the black level 0 and whites near 100, yet it displays blacks at 6% grey and white at 92%, if you color correct for the look (and who doesn't) you will mess up your output. Values are suppost to be between 0 to 100, negative and >100 value are headroom, but should not be used in finished output.

Paul, You can attach the sRGB to cRGB convertor to the preview monitor alone, this way you can color correct using the desktop and not mess-up the outputs.

Jonathan Gentry · April 29th, 2010, 07:12 PM

So would a workable solution be to color correct in FirstLight and edit in Vegas, or would the rendered file not equal the color corrected image in First Light?

David Newman · April 29th, 2010, 07:47 PM

Jonathan, that works fine. The issue only occurs when color correcting to a surface that has an incorrect black/write level (the default preview in Vegas.) The above workaround I showed address that.

Chris Barcellos · April 29th, 2010, 10:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David Newman

Paul, You can attach the sRGB to cRGB convertor to the preview monitor alone, this way you can color correct using the desktop and not mess-up the outputs.

I just tested this by rendering with the filter activated on the monitor and then the same clip with it off, and Paul is right, you have to turn it off before render because you do endup with the the change being rendered to the final final, and it won't be right.

At least that I now understand the problem, I can adjust for it..

Keith Paisley · April 30th, 2010, 10:52 AM

I have done some tests since yesterday and with no correction, I'm pretty sure I am not getting full range output when rendering from cineform to h.264 mpeg-4 (from a 32-bit floating point full range timeline). If I use the sRGB to cRGB video fx converter, then I get the really harsh, wrong output.

how do I get full range video back correctly from the cineform intermediate files?

April 28th, 2010, 07:08 PM	#1
Jonathan Gentry Regular Crew Join Date: Jun 2004 Posts: 183	Vegas9d/FirstLight Histogram Difference When I work over the colors/contrast etc in FL and view the same clip in Vegas the histogram is shifted to the right and the image reflects a more washed out black level. How do I get the same results in Vegas that I see in FirstLight?

April 28th, 2010, 07:56 PM	#2
David Newman CTO, CineForm Inc. Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Cardiff-by-the-Sea, California Posts: 8,095	Learn about Sony Vegas colorspare here Glennchan.info __________________ David Newman -- web: www.gopro.com blog: cineform.blogspot.com -- twitter: twitter.com/David_Newman

April 28th, 2010, 08:27 PM	#3
Chris Barcellos Inner Circle Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Elk Grove CA Posts: 6,838	David: I just bought NeoHd with light room, and for first time last night, I started looking at my Canon 5D "Lightroomed" footage in Vegas. There is a huge difference in the preview window, and I am not sure what you are suggesting we do to get proper levels in our finished product. What is Cineforms suggestion on handling footage corrected in Lightroom? How are we supposed to get the effect the way have adjusted in Lightroom. Referring users to a rather convoluted article is not really a satisfactory answer in my opinion. Will things be resolved for Vegas users ? Lightroom stuff looks good in Window Media Player output. __________________ Chris J. Barcellos

April 28th, 2010, 08:37 PM	#4
David Newman CTO, CineForm Inc. Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Cardiff-by-the-Sea, California Posts: 8,095	You mean FirstLight not LightRoom, different tools. Vegas has the wrong display black and white levels within the desktop (weird design choice I spent way too much time explaining.) Read the link above. So you can't color correct in Vegas as is, you have to use a calibrated external monitoring or add the video system to computer RGB conversion filter. FirstLight is correct on the desktop and for external monitoring. __________________ David Newman -- web: www.gopro.com blog: cineform.blogspot.com -- twitter: twitter.com/David_Newman

April 29th, 2010, 09:31 AM	#6
David Newman CTO, CineForm Inc. Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Cardiff-by-the-Sea, California Posts: 8,095	Canon files are wrong, we fix them to standard luma ranges during conversion. You should not apply "sRGB to cRGB" for exports only for desktop monitoring. __________________ David Newman -- web: www.gopro.com blog: cineform.blogspot.com -- twitter: twitter.com/David_Newman

April 29th, 2010, 09:14 AM	#5
Keith Paisley Regular Crew Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Atlanta, GA Posts: 190	From my understanding of that Glenn Chan article, all cineform .avi files decode to sRGB levels on the Vegas timeline, and according to the scopes, this appears to be the case. also according to that Glenn Chan article, quicktime .mov files (in my case, sourced from a 5D Mk II) decode to cRGB. Again, according to the scopes, this is what I'm seeing. Theoretically, 5D Mk II files that have been converted to cineform avis should be essentially identical in terms of levels (after restoring the CF file to cRGB levels), but this is not what I've been seeing. To test this, I created a full range 32-bit floating point project in Vegas, and I dropped a cineform avi on the timeline, and the source .mov file directly beneath it. Then I applied an sRGB to cRGB level correction filter to the cineform .avi. There should be visually almost no difference between the level-corrected cineform .avi and the source .mov file, correct? If so, then I think there is something wrong somewhere. the majority of my output is headed for web consumption, so I generally desire full range level for my output. If I apply standard sRGB to cRGB filters to cineform .avis, I get poor results. What am I doing wrong or is this something in the encode/decode chain that needs to be fixed?

April 29th, 2010, 10:43 AM	#7
Chris Barcellos Inner Circle Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Elk Grove CA Posts: 6,838	Please pardon my mixup on First Light. First, the original post was about Vegas 9, and the link David provided was about Vegas 8. To confuse things more, there is a link on that page, that does go to Vegas 9 treatment, and that adds to the confusion. There appear to be different recommendations in each page. In addition, in order to get Vegas 9d to handle Cineform files without long term lockup, I had to do a known avi plugin .dll replacement that has been used as a fix in situation where Cineform has been crashing in the past. With Vegas 9d and with First Light as a comparison, there is a significant difference on the on screen preview. I have seen some differences before, and always adjusted level using the scopes, but this appears to be more exaggerated than I have ever seen. Okay, so what does this all mean to me. All I want is to my preview window in Vegas to reflect what shows up in the First Light preview when I run the rendered file outside of Vegas. And when I drop a raw file that I converted to Cineform, I want it to show on the Vegas preview Window, the same as it does in First Light preview window. And of course, I want all of that, without affecting my resulting output and having it turn out flawed. The Chan article seems to imply that no matter what we do, we can't depend on it. So my simple request is are some straight answers: 1. Is the result I am seeking only obtainable through output to external monitor ? If so, how do you set that up ? With my dual monitor set up, for instance, if I push the monitor icon at the top of the Vegas preview, it takes one of my monitors and dedicates it solely to Vegas preview. Is that what you are referring to ? 2. Does Cineform have support page anywhere that gives you a step by step tutorial telling you how set things up to operate properly in Vegas, and if so, has it been updated to cover Vegas 9d settings in to get that result. I have been using Cineform for several years, because, in my mind, it always eased the need for getting into deeply technical adjustments, and perhaps that is naive. I am not a video engineer by any means. I am wagering that there are a lot of us out there like that, and the more a product requires us to enter our editing applications and make subtle adjustments in obsure places in the software, the less appealing the product is going to be. If Cineform knows there is an issue with a major NLE, it would seem that some sort of plugin should be developed and employed for the user to resolve the problem, for the benefit of its customers and the advancement of the product. __________________ Chris J. Barcellos

April 29th, 2010, 11:15 AM	#8
David Newman CTO, CineForm Inc. Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Cardiff-by-the-Sea, California Posts: 8,095	If you not using an AJA or Blackmagic card in Vegas, I'm not sure how you can color correct accurately, but the this the same for all NLEs, but in Vegas it is more true as the desktop is more wrong if you are not extra careful. We are not a plugin to Vegas, the codec works as it would anywhere, in Vegas it is asked for Studio RGB, and we honor that. So you questions are not for CineForm, but for the Sony Vegas team. I'm not aware that they have changed things in 9d that impacts preview, although I understand the 32-bit float does have a 0 black level (correct) but confusing thing more for the end user (as 8-bit is at 16.) I have not looked, but I would hope Sony had a white paper that explains all of this. On the stability issues in Vegas 9d (as compared to 9c) that is something Sony is working on, our VfW codec support in Vegas hasn't changed much in years, as a standard component, there is not much we can change. __________________ David Newman -- web: www.gopro.com blog: cineform.blogspot.com -- twitter: twitter.com/David_Newman

April 29th, 2010, 12:21 PM	#9
Paul Cascio Trustee Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Bristol, CT (Home of EPSN) Posts: 1,192	Wow, glad I stumbled across this thread. I just completed a Vegas project that caused tremendous frustration because the finished DVD had an image that was harsh and contrasty. I had to overcorrect in Vegas to get the finished product to look good. Leading me to several questions as I'm considering upgrading from Neo Scene to Neo HD. 1. If I use an Instensity card to monitor, would I get proper outpout? 2. Regarding the sRGB > cRGB filter, do I activate during editing and THEN remove it before rendering? 3. Would a firewire output provide realistic images? __________________ Paul Cascio www.pictureframingschool.com

April 29th, 2010, 02:24 PM	#10
Chris Barcellos Inner Circle Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Elk Grove CA Posts: 6,838	Dave: Just for your benefit, the attached photo dipicts a typical difference I am seeing with 9d. Also, to resolve the slow function and file recognition by Vegas of Cineform files, I did a dll replace in Vegas 9 d as set forth in this Vegas forum note, and it sped everything up, and it fixed that problem: http://www.custcenter.com/cgi-bin/so...p?p_faqid=4558 Attached Thumbnails __________________ Chris J. Barcellos

April 29th, 2010, 03:21 PM	#11
David Newman CTO, CineForm Inc. Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Cardiff-by-the-Sea, California Posts: 8,095	Chris, That picture highlights what I consider to be a bug in the Vegas workflow (as Paul found.) The Histogram shows the black level 0 and whites near 100, yet it displays blacks at 6% grey and white at 92%, if you color correct for the look (and who doesn't) you will mess up your output. Values are suppost to be between 0 to 100, negative and >100 value are headroom, but should not be used in finished output. Paul, You can attach the sRGB to cRGB convertor to the preview monitor alone, this way you can color correct using the desktop and not mess-up the outputs. Attached Thumbnails __________________ David Newman -- web: www.gopro.com blog: cineform.blogspot.com -- twitter: twitter.com/David_Newman

April 29th, 2010, 07:12 PM	#12
Jonathan Gentry Regular Crew Join Date: Jun 2004 Posts: 183	So would a workable solution be to color correct in FirstLight and edit in Vegas, or would the rendered file not equal the color corrected image in First Light?

April 29th, 2010, 07:47 PM	#13
David Newman CTO, CineForm Inc. Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Cardiff-by-the-Sea, California Posts: 8,095	Jonathan, that works fine. The issue only occurs when color correcting to a surface that has an incorrect black/write level (the default preview in Vegas.) The above workaround I showed address that. __________________ David Newman -- web: www.gopro.com blog: cineform.blogspot.com -- twitter: twitter.com/David_Newman

April 30th, 2010, 10:52 AM	#15
Keith Paisley Regular Crew Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Atlanta, GA Posts: 190	I have done some tests since yesterday and with no correction, I'm pretty sure I am not getting full range output when rendering from cineform to h.264 mpeg-4 (from a 32-bit floating point full range timeline). If I use the sRGB to cRGB video fx converter, then I get the really harsh, wrong output. how do I get full range video back correctly from the cineform intermediate files?