Rewrap from Neoscene?

[David Komer]

I have a large collection of AVI's created on Windows with NeoScene/Vegas, and now I need to move them over to a Mac for further production on FCP/AE.

FCP won't recognize the files, though Quicktime will- so I could theoretically transcode it all to ProRes. However, from what I've read, this is no good as Quicktime on Mac will interpret the AVI as 8-bit instead of 10-bit.

According to Cineform Tech Blog Blog Archive How can I rewrap files for cross-platform compatibility? - there's supposed to be a tool called "HD-Link" that allows me to rewrap the AVI to MOV on Windows, so that it can be used natively in FCP as 10-bit.

However- I don't see it alongside Neoscene anywhere. One of the main reasons I bought neoscene was for its "read anywhere" capability. Please help me get my video into FCP as 10-bit? :)

Thanks!

[Michael Wisniewski]

NeoScene does not have the re-wrap function. You'll have to use NEOHD which is the next step up from NeoScene.

NEOHD / PC
- contains the HD Link program which lets you to re-wrap your files between Cineform AVI <=> Cineform MOV.

NEOHD / Mac
- contains ReMaster, which is the Mac equivalent of HD Link. *** But it can only re-wrap in one direction: Cineform AVI => Cineform MOV.

[Michael Wisniewski]

Any chance you have the original video files? That would simplify your cross-platform issues. You could re-encode using NeoScene on the PC (MOV) or Mac (MOV / ProRes). Or you could use ClipWrap to re-wrap to a MOV file.

[David Komer]

Not sure what you mean by original video files...

Yes- I have all the original MTS files, but I transcoded to cineform, edited in vegas, and exported the edited clips as cineform. It's these edited clips which I need to work with on the Mac.

I do not see an option to "re-encode using NeoScene on the PC (MOV)"

So it seems my only option is to use HD-Link or Remaster... are either of these available for purchase separately?

[Michael Wisniewski]

I see, you just want to re-wrap the Cineform output from Vegas.

[David Komer]

Yep... are HD-Link and ReMaster my only options?

[Michael Wisniewski]

I can think of 3 options:

1. Get NEOHD and re-wrap your edited Cineform files.
2. Output your edit from Vegas in a more Mac friendly format.
3. Try editing the AVIs direct on the Mac and see if you can live with it.

[David Komer]

Thanks for your help!

By the way- how exactly do I definitively determine the color-depth of a MOV and/or AVI?

[Michael Wisniewski]

HDV (.m2t) and AVCHD (.mts) are 8-bit. Cineform files are 10-bit and at minimum use a 4:2:2 color space, but as you've discovered sometimes the NLEs don't use the 10-bits. In this case, FCP treats Cineform AVIs as 8-bit. If you're really sending your video to be processed by After Effects and color corrected in FCP, it's preferable to have this happen in a 10-bit, 4:2:2 color space. At the very least, output to a codec that supports what you're trying to do. DNxHD might be another good option for this type of cross-platform work. I believe you can export directly to DNxHD from Vegas.

[David Komer]

So would this be correct:

Going from AVCHD (8-bit) to Cineform (10-bit) doesn't really add any information, since any values that were represented by 8-bit can also be represented by 10-bit.

However, if that 10-bit file is now manipulated i.e. for color correction, it will have more possibilities since it's now a 10-bit file.

Exporting back out at 8-bit would "crunch" some of those values, resulting in possible artifacting. Rendering out at 10-bit would preserve it all.

So in short- going from 8-bit to 10-bit is pointless unless the file is going to be modified, in which case it's good to go to 10-bit, and stay there for the whole workflow?

[Michael Wisniewski]

Here's the Cineform Tech Blog on this issue.

Specifically on Mac, even though CineForm AVI files can be played in both QT Player and Final Cut Pro, 10/12-bit CineForm AVI files are interpreted on the Mac as 8-bit files. To ensure your CineForm files are properly interpreted by FCP and AE as 10/12-bit files, rewrap them to MOV files first.

[Michael Wisniewski]

Yes, generally if you're doing color correction or compositing, it's better to convert to a 10-bit file with a 4:2:2 color space ... this assumes that the NLE and FX software can handle it properly.

[David Komer]

Thanks for all your help!

It would be great if Neoscene came bundled with a simple "rewrap" utility... this isn't a problem I expected to run into :\

[David Komer]

I just gave the free Avid DNxHD codec a shot - Knowledge Base

It seems to export fine from Vegas. Would that be a valid route to export almost lossless to Mac from PC, while retaining the 10-bit fidelity?

If it does work, then does NeoScene offer anything which can't be done natively in Vegas with DNxHD, aside from 4:2:0->4:2:2?

(Vegas does read AVCHD natively- so with network rendering it could be used as a sort of batch process AVCHD->DNxHD)

[David Newman]

Most DNxHD implementations are 8-bit, and I strongly doubt the DNxHD 220 (the 10-bit mode) is directly supported beyond 8-bit IO from Vegas or from most hosts FCP, AE etc. So a CineForm NeoScene AVI on a Mac would work just as well as an DNxHD 220 MOV file -- except under FCP the CineForm file would be real-time with the RT mode enabled (part of NeoScene/NeoHD/etc on the Mac.) NeoScene is tool for workflow convenience for the hobbyist end of the market, if you are network rendering you are not so much a hobbyist and rewrap is included with all our pro level tools. You should look into a NeoHD license if you are doing a lot of cross platform work -- it will pay for itself.