Live capture 10bit 4:2:2 Prospect vs. HDV transcoded

Chad Haufschild · February 1st, 2010, 10:06 PM

I've been experimenting with live capture out of the HD SDI of my JVC HD250. The camera can push out 10bit 4:2:2 uncompressed and I can capture using HDlink quite successfully, but I'm tethered via a long piece of coax and the resulting file is actually 60p footage with embedded 24p flags, not true 24p files.

I can see a theoretical advantage to 10bit 4:2:2 transcoded to Cineform as compared to the 8bit 4:2:0 HDV transcoded. Theoretically I should have better information for the color grading and compositing processes, but is it so much better that it's worth the hassle of a tethered camera?

The 24p thing doesn't bug me that much. We're not doing filmout anyway and it doesn't really matter for DVD/bluray/VOD release. No big deal but it's a little strange knowing the file isn't really 24p. I know there are ways to fix that, but it's another thing to do on top of all the other post production work. It's too bad HDlink doesn't take care of that during capture.

I'm shooting my second feature with this rig in April. My first was shot to tape and transcoded to Cineform for post (included green screen composites and color grading) and I was quite pleased with the results.

So, what do you all think? Is the hassle worth the results?

David Newman · February 1st, 2010, 10:24 PM

All depends on how much you intend to push the image from it native in camera look. If not much, stick with convenience of the native camera compression. If you are tell your story with color, or doing keying, then tether. If you have the budget consider using a CineDeck -- cinedeck.com for mobile CineForm compression.

Simon Zimmer · February 2nd, 2010, 10:49 AM

That looks pretty amazing.

I did not find the cost on the website for the various models. How much is it?

Would this device be helpful for my Panasonic HMC-150?

I am not sure if I understand it 100%. Would it record whatever I am filming via HDMI and not go through the AVCHD compression in my camera?

Therefore, it would be recorded as a cineform .avi at 8,10 or 12bit depending which model you get?

The negative is you need a laptop to record it to or something else that is portable in size. Any suggestions?

Thanks,

Simon

David Newman · February 2nd, 2010, 02:47 PM

You don't need a laptop? The CineDeck records to a SSD (about 4hr of capture on a 256GB SSD) and it standalone, and it about the size a thick paperback (with a touchscreen.) It would allow you to bypass the camera compression form HDMI or HDSDI sources. HDMI unit details are not out for a while, HDSDI pricing and details out this month. There are taking orders now. They will be at the CineForm booth this NAB.

Simon Zimmer · February 2nd, 2010, 04:18 PM

Wow!

Sounds amazing. Thanks for the information.

Simon

Chad Haufschild · February 2nd, 2010, 05:03 PM

Thanks for your thoughts, David.

I've been watching the CineDeck for about 6 months now. Cool little beast, but it's more than I can afford. The tethered option exists because I already have the pieces needed to do it. A $5000 buy would cripple my budget right now.

On my last project we did some very complicated keys with the Cineform-transcoded HDV footage and were very happy with the results, far better than native HDV. I'm a big fan of Cineform. It's a permanent part of my workflow.

I'm going to do a few more tests before I decide. I need to see how the color grading we plan will effect each scenario.

Thanks again.

David Newman · February 2nd, 2010, 05:15 PM

Chad,

Keep an eye out for the HDMI pricing on CineDeck, I think you might be surprised. We are hearing positive things, although CineDeck is from dbox not from CineForm, so we don't control pricing.

Simon Zimmer · February 2nd, 2010, 05:58 PM

So the HDMI version will be out this year or next year?

Simon

Brian Parker · February 2nd, 2010, 08:27 PM

Wow, that does look pretty sexy.

David Newman · February 2nd, 2010, 08:51 PM

HDSDI units are end users hand right now, with production ramping. So after they will be working on the HDMI system.

Marc de Jesus · February 3rd, 2010, 03:54 AM

Chad,

I shoot on the JVC 200. Any tips on getting better keys with that camera?? I captured my greenscreen footage via firewire with prospecthd and used keylight. Still can't get clean keys. Any tips would be great!

-Marc

Chad Haufschild · February 3rd, 2010, 08:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David Newman

Chad,

Keep an eye out for the HDMI pricing on CineDeck, I think you might be surprised. We are hearing positive things, although CineDeck is from dbox not from CineForm, so we don't control pricing.

Thanks, David. I've heard a lot of good things as well. Unfortunately the HDMI version will do me no good. JVC HD250 has HDSDI, no HDMI. I'll continue to follow the CineDeck and watch pricing. I still think direct-to-Cineform is the holy grail of acquisition. What we need is some crazy-smart engineer to develop a hardware encoder for it. That will bring prices down quickly.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Marc de Jesus

Chad,

I shoot on the JVC 200. Any tips on getting better keys with that camera?? I captured my greenscreen footage via firewire with prospecthd and used keylight. Still can't get clean keys. Any tips would be great!

-Marc

Hey, Marc. We use the same process for greenscreen. Keylight is fantastic. I don't think I have any new tips for you. Obviously the first step is good lighting. The keying we did on "Wake the Witch" (title of said feature) started under not-perfect conditions but our lighting was fair. That helps a lot. Second, our key was meant to be paranormal or fantastic in nature so we at no time were going for "realism". We overcame our issues via garbage matts and multiple keys, two and sometimes three keylight pulls at the same time. It was a slow render but it worked great.

Charles Dautremont · February 9th, 2010, 01:02 PM

Hi Chad,

If demand is great enough it's very easy for us to support SDI-only at the same pricepoint as HDMI-only.

best,

Charles

Chad Haufschild · February 9th, 2010, 05:13 PM

Thanks, Charles. I realize that the JVC 250 is in an odd class of camera, but I think the HD SDI only could find a healthy market. I've seen on your website a unit that supports both HDMI and single link HD SDI. Perhaps that's the unit that could eventually find a lower price point.

I'd love to play with one of your rigs. I have a feature shoot coming up. Can I borrow one;)

Charles Dautremont · February 18th, 2010, 01:31 PM

Hi Chad,

If you'd like to be part of our beta program, I can set you up in a jiffy.

best,

Charles

February 1st, 2010, 10:06 PM	#1
Chad Haufschild Regular Crew Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Lincoln, NE Posts: 162	Live capture 10bit 4:2:2 Prospect vs. HDV transcoded - is it worth it? I've been experimenting with live capture out of the HD SDI of my JVC HD250. The camera can push out 10bit 4:2:2 uncompressed and I can capture using HDlink quite successfully, but I'm tethered via a long piece of coax and the resulting file is actually 60p footage with embedded 24p flags, not true 24p files. I can see a theoretical advantage to 10bit 4:2:2 transcoded to Cineform as compared to the 8bit 4:2:0 HDV transcoded. Theoretically I should have better information for the color grading and compositing processes, but is it so much better that it's worth the hassle of a tethered camera? The 24p thing doesn't bug me that much. We're not doing filmout anyway and it doesn't really matter for DVD/bluray/VOD release. No big deal but it's a little strange knowing the file isn't really 24p. I know there are ways to fix that, but it's another thing to do on top of all the other post production work. It's too bad HDlink doesn't take care of that during capture. I'm shooting my second feature with this rig in April. My first was shot to tape and transcoded to Cineform for post (included green screen composites and color grading) and I was quite pleased with the results. So, what do you all think? Is the hassle worth the results?

February 1st, 2010, 10:24 PM	#2
David Newman CTO, CineForm Inc. Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Cardiff-by-the-Sea, California Posts: 8,095	All depends on how much you intend to push the image from it native in camera look. If not much, stick with convenience of the native camera compression. If you are tell your story with color, or doing keying, then tether. If you have the budget consider using a CineDeck -- cinedeck.com for mobile CineForm compression. __________________ David Newman -- web: www.gopro.com blog: cineform.blogspot.com -- twitter: twitter.com/David_Newman

February 2nd, 2010, 10:49 AM	#3
Simon Zimmer Major Player Join Date: May 2008 Location: Easton, Maryland Posts: 497	wow! That looks pretty amazing. I did not find the cost on the website for the various models. How much is it? Would this device be helpful for my Panasonic HMC-150? I am not sure if I understand it 100%. Would it record whatever I am filming via HDMI and not go through the AVCHD compression in my camera? Therefore, it would be recorded as a cineform .avi at 8,10 or 12bit depending which model you get? The negative is you need a laptop to record it to or something else that is portable in size. Any suggestions? Thanks, Simon

February 2nd, 2010, 02:47 PM	#4
David Newman CTO, CineForm Inc. Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Cardiff-by-the-Sea, California Posts: 8,095	You don't need a laptop? The CineDeck records to a SSD (about 4hr of capture on a 256GB SSD) and it standalone, and it about the size a thick paperback (with a touchscreen.) It would allow you to bypass the camera compression form HDMI or HDSDI sources. HDMI unit details are not out for a while, HDSDI pricing and details out this month. There are taking orders now. They will be at the CineForm booth this NAB. __________________ David Newman -- web: www.gopro.com blog: cineform.blogspot.com -- twitter: twitter.com/David_Newman

February 2nd, 2010, 05:15 PM	#7
David Newman CTO, CineForm Inc. Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Cardiff-by-the-Sea, California Posts: 8,095	Chad, Keep an eye out for the HDMI pricing on CineDeck, I think you might be surprised. We are hearing positive things, although CineDeck is from dbox not from CineForm, so we don't control pricing. __________________ David Newman -- web: www.gopro.com blog: cineform.blogspot.com -- twitter: twitter.com/David_Newman

February 2nd, 2010, 04:18 PM	#5
Simon Zimmer Major Player Join Date: May 2008 Location: Easton, Maryland Posts: 497	Wow! Sounds amazing. Thanks for the information. Simon

February 2nd, 2010, 05:03 PM	#6
Chad Haufschild Regular Crew Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Lincoln, NE Posts: 162	Thanks for your thoughts, David. I've been watching the CineDeck for about 6 months now. Cool little beast, but it's more than I can afford. The tethered option exists because I already have the pieces needed to do it. A $5000 buy would cripple my budget right now. On my last project we did some very complicated keys with the Cineform-transcoded HDV footage and were very happy with the results, far better than native HDV. I'm a big fan of Cineform. It's a permanent part of my workflow. I'm going to do a few more tests before I decide. I need to see how the color grading we plan will effect each scenario. Thanks again.

February 2nd, 2010, 05:58 PM	#8
Simon Zimmer Major Player Join Date: May 2008 Location: Easton, Maryland Posts: 497	So the HDMI version will be out this year or next year? Simon

February 2nd, 2010, 08:27 PM	#9
Brian Parker Major Player Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Tokyo Posts: 230	Wow, that does look pretty sexy.

February 2nd, 2010, 08:51 PM	#10
David Newman CTO, CineForm Inc. Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Cardiff-by-the-Sea, California Posts: 8,095	HDSDI units are end users hand right now, with production ramping. So after they will be working on the HDMI system. __________________ David Newman -- web: www.gopro.com blog: cineform.blogspot.com -- twitter: twitter.com/David_Newman

February 3rd, 2010, 03:54 AM	#11
Marc de Jesus Regular Crew Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: Fullerton, California Posts: 91	Chad, I shoot on the JVC 200. Any tips on getting better keys with that camera?? I captured my greenscreen footage via firewire with prospecthd and used keylight. Still can't get clean keys. Any tips would be great! -Marc

February 9th, 2010, 01:02 PM	#13
Charles Dautremont New Boot Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: New York, NY Posts: 8	Hi Chad, If demand is great enough it's very easy for us to support SDI-only at the same pricepoint as HDMI-only. best, Charles

February 9th, 2010, 05:13 PM	#14
Chad Haufschild Regular Crew Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Lincoln, NE Posts: 162	Thanks, Charles. I realize that the JVC 250 is in an odd class of camera, but I think the HD SDI only could find a healthy market. I've seen on your website a unit that supports both HDMI and single link HD SDI. Perhaps that's the unit that could eventually find a lower price point. I'd love to play with one of your rigs. I have a feature shoot coming up. Can I borrow one;)

February 18th, 2010, 01:31 PM	#15
Charles Dautremont New Boot Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: New York, NY Posts: 8	betas Hi Chad, If you'd like to be part of our beta program, I can set you up in a jiffy. best, Charles