Undoing Accidental CS4 Render at DVinfo.net

Michael Panfeld · January 7th, 2010, 02:15 PM

Hi:

I had an editor do a Cineform/CS4 project from start to finish using my computer. I never was able to watch her edit and still havenpt seen the finished product. That's because, when I got it back, I stupidly hit the Render Work Area button and then hit save.

It was an instinctive action. I totally forgot that, without the Real Time engine for CS4, this has the result of ruining the project not just on the timeline, but also in any media exports or DVDs that are created from it.

Is there any way to reverse that? This project was saved as version 10? Luckily she also saved version 9. If I can't undo the damage in version 10, can I go back to version 9 and somehow recreate the changes made between version 9 and the final version (10)? If so, how can I determine what those changes are? Her memory of what those changes were is gone and I have limited editing skills. Can the EDL be used and if so, is there a magic button to click (or a series of steps) that will make the changes easy to implement (not sure what an EDL looks like or how to use it, just know it exists).

Thanks

Robert Young · January 7th, 2010, 02:36 PM

If the editor had "autosave" turned on for CS4, then you can go to the autosave folder and find the most recently saved project- this may be more recent than "version 9"
However, I'm not sure what the actual problem is. When you "render work area" you are only rendering previews- the process shouldn't actually change anything on the timeline. If you "save", it's only saves the rendered previews- you haven't changed the timeline, the actual timeline should remain as it was, and you should be able to continue with any additional editing you desire.

Michael Panfeld · January 7th, 2010, 02:40 PM

If you have Cineform Prospect HD installed under CS4, rendering the work area destroys the image, both in the preview window and in anything that is output from the timeline.

When I say destroy, I mean to say that it looks like about 1/4 of the actual image is used. So I would see, for example, in an .avi file that I create, a person's left eye whereas the original shot is a full face shot. It appears this way in both the preview window in CS4 and it also appears this way in any media file or DVD that is created.

I'll check for the autosave, but that may still not have been the latest version depending on how often it "auto-saves". Thanks

Charles W. Hull · January 7th, 2010, 10:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Michael Panfeld

If you have Cineform Prospect HD installed under CS4, rendering the work area destroys the image, both in the preview window and in anything that is output from the timeline.

When I say destroy, I mean to say that it looks like about 1/4 of the actual image is used. So I would see, for example, in an .avi file that I create, a person's left eye whereas the original shot is a full face shot. It appears this way in both the preview window in CS4 and it also appears this way in any media file or DVD that is created.

Strange, I render the work area now and then with CS4 and ProspectHD and have never seen anything like this.

David Newman · January 8th, 2010, 12:21 AM

I've never heard of anything like this either. Rendering doesn't touch the original files, nothing is lost, you can just request to delete the preview files. Also Premiere should always render previews in high quality full resolution. I think you have the default render codec set to something bizarre like DV, that would kill quality and resolution (although completely reversible.)

Adam Gold · January 8th, 2010, 12:26 PM

I'm wondering if this could happen if someone were editing HDV footage in a DV timeline/project.

But in any event, the original files are safe and unmolested; nothing ever changes them, as David pointed out. Even if Rendering did output a new file, the originals are unchanged. All you have to do is delete the Rendered files and you're back in business (Sequence > Delete Render Files in CS3). And rendering the Work Area does not create a new avi file -- it just makes a Preview file to assist in playback. To make a new avi file you'd need to Export, but as we noted this has no effect on your original files or project.

I mean, I could be totally wrong, but I can't imagine that this issue would have anything to do with Cineform in general or the RT engine (or lack thereof) in particular. I've read every post on these forums for three years now and never heard of anything like this.

Edit: I was just over in the Adobe Forums and found a post with someone complaining of the same issue, seeing only 25% of the frame after rendering. The theory over there is indeed that the project settings do not match the footage. No mention of Cineform.

Michael Panfeld · January 10th, 2010, 10:45 AM

Adam: Thanks. in CS4 there are two choices Delete Render Files and Delete Work Area Render Files. I tried the latter one and it worked. Project saved with the "Easy Button". Much thanks.

Strange about the project settings not matching the footage. When it did happen, the 25% vie in the preview window was exactly what was output when I created .avi files.

Anyway, problem solved. Thanks

Michael Panfeld · January 10th, 2010, 01:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David Newman

I've never heard of anything like this either. Rendering doesn't touch the original files, nothing is lost, you can just request to delete the preview files. Also Premiere should always render previews in high quality full resolution. I think you have the default render codec set to something bizarre like DV, that would kill quality and resolution (although completely reversible.)

David: I had no idea what you meant, but I did some checking and, under the Sequence Settings, the Video Preview codec is set to DV (24P Advanced). The Preview File Format is set at Microsoft AVI. Is this what you are talking about? Is this somehow related to the project preset? If so, and the preset was incorrectly chosen, can that ever be changed?

Thanks

David Newman · January 10th, 2010, 01:28 PM

That's it. Start a new sequence with the correct settings, cut and paste from the old sequence into the new.

Adam Gold · January 10th, 2010, 02:37 PM

If you're working with HDV footage, I'd just start a new project with the correct settings and import the old project into it.

Michael Panfeld · January 10th, 2010, 03:00 PM

Thanks David. That was easy. Learning something new everyday (I am a editing novice, so that is easy).

But here is another strangeness. Adam, I am not working with HDV files. I'm working with Cineform .avi files. These were created capturing the uncompressed out from the Canon HV20 to the BM Intensity card and the Cineform HD Link. Here is the really strange part. The file bin shows that all of the files are 29.97 fps progressive. However, these were captured at 24 fps progressive. So there is no way that this is correct.

Is that something that came about from using the incorrect preset? Can that be changed or should that be ignored? Should I be using the Cineform 24, 23.97, or 29.97 preset? Thanks

Adam Gold · January 10th, 2010, 03:53 PM

Whoa, there is so much mixed up stuff here it's no wonder you are having problems.

Firstly, was the footage captured live as you were shooting directly into the PC via HDMI out into the BM? Or was it recorded to tape first and then captured into the PC later? If the latter, it's not uncompressed and you wasted a lot of time, effort and money using the BM and the HDMI out. Once it's written to tape it's compressed and you can't get back the data that was lost.

And I was referring to your original source files, so yes, you're working with HDV because that's what the HV20 shoots, no matter what you convert it to for editing. David can comment better than I about whether there was a screw-up in converting 24p to 30p, but it sounds wrong to me. If I were shooting 24p (which I never would and this is why, but that's another story) I'd capture directly into a 24p timeline using the appropriate Cineform Preset. And yes, you could recapture all your footage and not lose your edits or all the work that's already been done in Premiere.

You should post a screen grab of your project settings so we can be sure, but it sounds like you were doing what I theorized earlier, using CFHD-AVI footage in a DV project.

You should still be able to create a Cineform 24p HD project and import your old project into it. Try that first and see if it helps... or makes things worse.

Michael Panfeld · January 10th, 2010, 07:36 PM

Adam: I captured live from the HDMI port. Never went to tape. I captured using Cineform's HD Link capture application, so there are no "original" files - just the Cineform "intermediate" files.

I started a new project, selecting the Cineform 1080P 24P preset and imported a few files. They came up as 29.97. The Canon HV20 does not offer 30P (just the HV30 or HV40). So I am completely lost as to how I can end up with 29.97P Cineform files from a 24P camera.

David, any thoughts.

Adam Gold · January 10th, 2010, 07:59 PM

Okay, got it. Yeah, David's the guy to go to for these answers.

Let us know how it works out.

Michael Panfeld · January 10th, 2010, 08:44 PM

OK, I know what happened now. By bactracking, I realized that the 3:2 pulldown option was not selected on the original capture. I just tried a conversion using HD Link but with the 3:2 option selected. I created a .mov file (got an error when I tried to convert to a .avi file) and then imported the mov file into a new project with a 24P Cineform Preset. The file imported as a 23.97 FPS file. It looked smooth in the reference monitor. Wow, what a mess this project was.

So my guess is that I can open a new, and correct Cineform 23.97 1080P preset project sequence. Cut and paste the old sequence in. Delete the old 29.97 .avi files. Import the new 23.97 .avi files, and presto chango it will all be good. Tell me its that easy?

One question: is there a fast an easy way to do a batch convert of all the .avi files back into .avi files with the 3:2 option selected using a Cineform utility. Or will I have to batch convert to .mov files and then batch convert those .mov files back into .avi files?

January 7th, 2010, 02:15 PM	#1
Michael Panfeld Regular Crew Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: Washington, DC Posts: 78	Undoing Accidental CS4 Render Hi: I had an editor do a Cineform/CS4 project from start to finish using my computer. I never was able to watch her edit and still havenpt seen the finished product. That's because, when I got it back, I stupidly hit the Render Work Area button and then hit save. It was an instinctive action. I totally forgot that, without the Real Time engine for CS4, this has the result of ruining the project not just on the timeline, but also in any media exports or DVDs that are created from it. Is there any way to reverse that? This project was saved as version 10? Luckily she also saved version 9. If I can't undo the damage in version 10, can I go back to version 9 and somehow recreate the changes made between version 9 and the final version (10)? If so, how can I determine what those changes are? Her memory of what those changes were is gone and I have limited editing skills. Can the EDL be used and if so, is there a magic button to click (or a series of steps) that will make the changes easy to implement (not sure what an EDL looks like or how to use it, just know it exists). Thanks

January 7th, 2010, 02:36 PM	#2
Robert Young Trustee Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Coronado Island Posts: 1,472	If the editor had "autosave" turned on for CS4, then you can go to the autosave folder and find the most recently saved project- this may be more recent than "version 9" However, I'm not sure what the actual problem is. When you "render work area" you are only rendering previews- the process shouldn't actually change anything on the timeline. If you "save", it's only saves the rendered previews- you haven't changed the timeline, the actual timeline should remain as it was, and you should be able to continue with any additional editing you desire. __________________ Bob

January 8th, 2010, 12:21 AM	#5
David Newman CTO, CineForm Inc. Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Cardiff-by-the-Sea, California Posts: 8,095	I've never heard of anything like this either. Rendering doesn't touch the original files, nothing is lost, you can just request to delete the preview files. Also Premiere should always render previews in high quality full resolution. I think you have the default render codec set to something bizarre like DV, that would kill quality and resolution (although completely reversible.) __________________ David Newman -- web: www.gopro.com blog: cineform.blogspot.com -- twitter: twitter.com/David_Newman

January 8th, 2010, 12:26 PM	#6
Adam Gold Inner Circle Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Woodinville, WA USA Posts: 3,467	I'm wondering if this could happen if someone were editing HDV footage in a DV timeline/project. But in any event, the original files are safe and unmolested; nothing ever changes them, as David pointed out. Even if Rendering did output a new file, the originals are unchanged. All you have to do is delete the Rendered files and you're back in business (Sequence > Delete Render Files in CS3). And rendering the Work Area does not create a new avi file -- it just makes a Preview file to assist in playback. To make a new avi file you'd need to Export, but as we noted this has no effect on your original files or project. I mean, I could be totally wrong, but I can't imagine that this issue would have anything to do with Cineform in general or the RT engine (or lack thereof) in particular. I've read every post on these forums for three years now and never heard of anything like this. Edit: I was just over in the Adobe Forums and found a post with someone complaining of the same issue, seeing only 25% of the frame after rendering. The theory over there is indeed that the project settings do not match the footage. No mention of Cineform. __________________ "It can only be attributable to human error... This sort of thing has cropped up before, and it has always been due to human error." Last edited by Adam Gold; January 8th, 2010 at 11:25 PM.

January 10th, 2010, 10:45 AM	#7
Michael Panfeld Regular Crew Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: Washington, DC Posts: 78	Thanks Adam: Thanks. in CS4 there are two choices Delete Render Files and Delete Work Area Render Files. I tried the latter one and it worked. Project saved with the "Easy Button". Much thanks. Strange about the project settings not matching the footage. When it did happen, the 25% vie in the preview window was exactly what was output when I created .avi files. Anyway, problem solved. Thanks

January 7th, 2010, 02:40 PM	#3
Michael Panfeld Regular Crew Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: Washington, DC Posts: 78	If you have Cineform Prospect HD installed under CS4, rendering the work area destroys the image, both in the preview window and in anything that is output from the timeline. When I say destroy, I mean to say that it looks like about 1/4 of the actual image is used. So I would see, for example, in an .avi file that I create, a person's left eye whereas the original shot is a full face shot. It appears this way in both the preview window in CS4 and it also appears this way in any media file or DVD that is created. I'll check for the autosave, but that may still not have been the latest version depending on how often it "auto-saves". Thanks

January 10th, 2010, 01:28 PM	#9
David Newman CTO, CineForm Inc. Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Cardiff-by-the-Sea, California Posts: 8,095	That's it. Start a new sequence with the correct settings, cut and paste from the old sequence into the new. __________________ David Newman -- web: www.gopro.com blog: cineform.blogspot.com -- twitter: twitter.com/David_Newman

January 10th, 2010, 02:37 PM	#10
Adam Gold Inner Circle Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Woodinville, WA USA Posts: 3,467	If you're working with HDV footage, I'd just start a new project with the correct settings and import the old project into it. __________________ "It can only be attributable to human error... This sort of thing has cropped up before, and it has always been due to human error."

January 10th, 2010, 03:00 PM	#11
Michael Panfeld Regular Crew Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: Washington, DC Posts: 78	Thanks David. That was easy. Learning something new everyday (I am a editing novice, so that is easy). But here is another strangeness. Adam, I am not working with HDV files. I'm working with Cineform .avi files. These were created capturing the uncompressed out from the Canon HV20 to the BM Intensity card and the Cineform HD Link. Here is the really strange part. The file bin shows that all of the files are 29.97 fps progressive. However, these were captured at 24 fps progressive. So there is no way that this is correct. Is that something that came about from using the incorrect preset? Can that be changed or should that be ignored? Should I be using the Cineform 24, 23.97, or 29.97 preset? Thanks

January 10th, 2010, 03:53 PM	#12
Adam Gold Inner Circle Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Woodinville, WA USA Posts: 3,467	Whoa, there is so much mixed up stuff here it's no wonder you are having problems. Firstly, was the footage captured live as you were shooting directly into the PC via HDMI out into the BM? Or was it recorded to tape first and then captured into the PC later? If the latter, it's not uncompressed and you wasted a lot of time, effort and money using the BM and the HDMI out. Once it's written to tape it's compressed and you can't get back the data that was lost. And I was referring to your original source files, so yes, you're working with HDV because that's what the HV20 shoots, no matter what you convert it to for editing. David can comment better than I about whether there was a screw-up in converting 24p to 30p, but it sounds wrong to me. If I were shooting 24p (which I never would and this is why, but that's another story) I'd capture directly into a 24p timeline using the appropriate Cineform Preset. And yes, you could recapture all your footage and not lose your edits or all the work that's already been done in Premiere. You should post a screen grab of your project settings so we can be sure, but it sounds like you were doing what I theorized earlier, using CFHD-AVI footage in a DV project. You should still be able to create a Cineform 24p HD project and import your old project into it. Try that first and see if it helps... or makes things worse. __________________ "It can only be attributable to human error... This sort of thing has cropped up before, and it has always been due to human error."

January 10th, 2010, 07:36 PM	#13
Michael Panfeld Regular Crew Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: Washington, DC Posts: 78	Adam: I captured live from the HDMI port. Never went to tape. I captured using Cineform's HD Link capture application, so there are no "original" files - just the Cineform "intermediate" files. I started a new project, selecting the Cineform 1080P 24P preset and imported a few files. They came up as 29.97. The Canon HV20 does not offer 30P (just the HV30 or HV40). So I am completely lost as to how I can end up with 29.97P Cineform files from a 24P camera. David, any thoughts.

January 10th, 2010, 07:59 PM	#14
Adam Gold Inner Circle Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Woodinville, WA USA Posts: 3,467	Okay, got it. Yeah, David's the guy to go to for these answers. Let us know how it works out. __________________ "It can only be attributable to human error... This sort of thing has cropped up before, and it has always been due to human error."

January 10th, 2010, 08:44 PM	#15
Michael Panfeld Regular Crew Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: Washington, DC Posts: 78	OK, I know what happened now. By bactracking, I realized that the 3:2 pulldown option was not selected on the original capture. I just tried a conversion using HD Link but with the 3:2 option selected. I created a .mov file (got an error when I tried to convert to a .avi file) and then imported the mov file into a new project with a 24P Cineform Preset. The file imported as a 23.97 FPS file. It looked smooth in the reference monitor. Wow, what a mess this project was. So my guess is that I can open a new, and correct Cineform 23.97 1080P preset project sequence. Cut and paste the old sequence in. Delete the old 29.97 .avi files. Import the new 23.97 .avi files, and presto chango it will all be good. Tell me its that easy? One question: is there a fast an easy way to do a batch convert of all the .avi files back into .avi files with the 3:2 option selected using a Cineform utility. Or will I have to batch convert to .mov files and then batch convert those .mov files back into .avi files?