Revised ETA for CS4 RTE?

David Newman · November 9th, 2009, 05:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Marty Baggen

This is just as good of time as any to drop in my periodic request.

The answer to all of this is a standalone Cineform NLE.

I think I speak for many in my profession... an upgrade to CS5 is NOT a done deal in my book.

The mess that is Premiere is because feature creep is unavoidable, as no two editors seem need the same feature set. In my past engineering life, I have written key parts of two NLEs: 16-19 years ago Producer Elite on the Amiga, and 9-12 years ago the ScreenPlay turn key edit box. While I still don't understand why Premiere needs so much RAM (its Achilles' heel -- both of my older NLEs did everything in 16MB without issue), the compliance with so many input and output standards would make producing a new NLE so difficult today (particularly for a small company.) Over time you will see more editing features appear in First Light, but it will never be a full editor.

David Newman · November 9th, 2009, 05:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mikael Bergstrom

Sweet David:-)

Just still like to know this part "do you think Cineform RT engine is ready when Premiere 4.2 is ready for prime time"?

Regards
Mikael

You can edit with CS4 now, RT the engine will make it faster. We aren't changing anything else, imports and exports are exactly the same. Basically, just like in CS3, the Premiere API is too slow for some playback features so we are bypassing it. In the past when used DirectShow Editing Services, which was broken with Windows 7 (yet another SNAFU) so the new RT uses the CineForm SDK directly, which is a cleaner approach used by First Light and even used within the current CS4 importer. This is far more under our control, less impacted by Adobe's or Microsofts API choices -- good things.

Marty Baggen · November 9th, 2009, 05:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David Newman

You can edit with CS4 now, RT the engine will make it faster. We aren't changing anything else.

Ironically, it's not the RTE that is the snag for me... it's the fact that CFHD files are ignored by the CS4 Project Manager.

David... I can appreciate the mountain to climb to produce an NLE, but the thought of a lean/mean Cineform interface conjures up visions of a rock solid timeline cutter with First Light doing the processing.

If CS5 is easier, rest assured CS6 will not, and so on......

Lots of Monday quarterbacking, and it's great you are even here to address it all, but like Adam and others... it was a bit of a jolt to see the oft-projected finalizing of CS4 integration put off in favor "other" engineering.

New markets are essential, but don't forget who has paid the bills thusfar.

Robert Young · November 9th, 2009, 05:13 PM

It seems to me that the entire Vista, CS4, CF4 landscape has been a bit of a minefield for all concerned- MS, Adobe, Cineform, and certainly us end users.
Frankly, I believe that these have all turned out to be semi-beta products that simply represent the run up to Win7+CS5+CF5. Not much to do but wait for them to all come on line.
In the meantime, I have actually been able to everything that I needed to with Vista64/CS4/CF4/FL faster, more stable, and more easily than I was able to with XP32/CS3/CF3.
Surely this will pass...

Martin Rahn · November 9th, 2009, 05:59 PM

I don't mean to pile on, but I will.

Whatever happened to the promise of timeline monitoring on an HD TV via Black Magic and PHD4? It isn't even mentioned anymore.

It kind of makes me not believe anything I hear from the Cineform boys anymore.

First it would work using Aspect. No deal. Now Prospect and still no deal.

Marty Rahn

David Newman · November 9th, 2009, 06:21 PM

CS4 progress delayed that. Fortunately as the new CS4 playback is more like the First Light playback engine, you may have noticed that FL supports Blackmagic cards. So Blackmagic is planned for the new playback engine, but not for CS3. Playback engine has to be first, before I/O cards support.

Andronico Gonzalez · November 9th, 2009, 07:39 PM

Hi David,

Im in big trouble, I didn't knew the problem with the RT engine in CS4, so I upgrade my software and bring an editor from Argentina to edit a movie. He is having a lot of troubles working, the playback isn't fluid, sometimes clips freezes.
If I get back to CS3 the project he has done would not open, but if not he cannot edit in RT.
What are the best settings to work in CS4?
Hardware upgrade would really help?

Im using XP64 SP3, CS4.1, Prospect 4K build 224, Cineform 2048 x 1152 Raw files (SI-2K) with linked .wav stereo audio files, 2 Opteron Dual-Core 2.4 Ghz, 8 GB Ram, Nvidia Quadro FX 3500, 8 HDD Fiber Array.

No color matrix, no WB, no LUT, Bilinear, fast playback, normal scroll (not smooth).

The editor would only be working with me for 3 more weeks, and I need him to finish the job.

Thanks for the help.

Charles W. Hull · November 9th, 2009, 08:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Marty Baggen

This is just as good of time as any to drop in my periodic request.

The answer to all of this is a standalone Cineform NLE.

I think I speak for many in my profession... an upgrade to CS5 is NOT a done deal in my book.

Marty, how about a compromise request? I would like the ability to trim clips in First Light. Just this little feature creep and I would be happy.

Marty Baggen · November 9th, 2009, 09:09 PM

Charles... you are a very smart man.

I came from the days of DPS Perception. It had a bare bones clip trimmer that was fantastic....and ironically, it integrated with Premiere.

Using First Light as a springboard for more editing type functions is a great approach if feasible from an engineering standpoint.

William Urschel · November 10th, 2009, 06:03 AM

A year ago, I purchased CS4, based upon Cineform's PROMISE of having Prospect 4k up to speed shortly to work on it. A YEAR ago. I don't care who is pointing fingers at whom, I'm just not going to trust anything here anymore. Trust is based upon trustworthiness - nuff said!

I continue to use CS3 and Prospect 4k as a solid, reliable editor, and then bring the resulting AVIs over to AMECS4 and Encore CS4, again, with solid, reliable results. But I won't be purchasing any more Adobe "upgrade" editions or counting on anything in the future beyond what I have at the moment, until forced to by the complete incompatability of the arrangements I have now with other, related new applications which appear on the market.

Greg Kubitschek · November 10th, 2009, 10:27 AM

I saw the 3D demo at the Cineform both at NAB. Impressive, easy, fun really. But that's not at all the work I do. I need Premiere and Cineform to edit my HDV reliably. Let the "other features" come as they may, but lets get the core foundation solid. Its like building a house on a sandy foundation.

I have stuck with Cinform because of their continous and open communication, and by using cineform, my footage looks really good. But its time to buckle down and get CS4 fixed and running smoothly.

I've been editing since 1996 in the Media 100 days, and have seen some software/hardware blunders, but I have never seen such a train wreck as this Adobe-Cineform software catch up thing as has transpired over the last year.

GK

Stephen Armour · November 10th, 2009, 10:28 AM

First off, I want to thank Cineform for their innovation and even for their new Prospect 3D possibility. In our fast changing market, your creativity and flexibility with change is appreciated and noted.

I could mirror though, the frustrations of many here, but know their voices have already been heard by you. Their/our loyalty is a pretty precious thing, especially in light of the rapidly changing technology we use. Having a 3D option will definitely be valuable as the world finally embraces 3D for television/internet/film...but listen to the voices of those here that will eventually use it. If you can keep them satisfied, they will be the core of your future (if compressed HD is even needed for the heart of 3D production).

No matter how much you sell "high end" solutions for, your "mid/lower range" is hundreds of times larger I'm sure. They will be the ones to keep you going if technology takes us down the road to "every man's 3D".

In the meantime, focus your engineers on us and we'll keep on coming back.

Dan Herrmann · November 11th, 2009, 09:28 PM

I read through this entire thread and see both sides of the situation.
i am sure Cineform does not need Prospect 4 customers to get where they are going.

Reading this thread we have a small group of customers raising heck and apparently the mass group of customers still using CS3 and getting along fine.

I assume that like previous versions we will continue to get upgraded features and for good-will sake at least a year of 4.x upgrades after the RTE is up on-line. this should carry us through CS5 and by then we will have processors and acquisition codecs that laugh at the need for an intermediate.
then cineform will have all the time they need to focus on their engineering of new products for the large market segment.

Graham Hickling · November 11th, 2009, 10:50 PM

CS3 isn't fine under Windows 7, at least for a number of us.
http://www.dvinfo.net/forum/cineform...-playback.html

I wish they would get around to fixing that, too!

Marty Baggen · November 11th, 2009, 11:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dan Herrmann

Reading this thread we have a small group of customers raising heck and apparently the mass group of customers still using CS3 and getting along fine.

I assume that like previous versions we will continue to get upgraded features and for good-will sake at least a year of 4.x upgrades after the RTE is up on-line. this should carry us through CS5 and by then we will have processors and acquisition codecs that laugh at the need for an intermediate.
then cineform will have all the time they need to focus on their engineering of new products for the large market segment.

Using your approach is precisely what "we" (the rabble-rousing minority) took a year ago with CS4. Where it got us is why "we" are upset that our needs (once the foundational premise of our investment) were shelved.

That you can determine or not (I'm curious about your method) how large or small our "group" is, is irrelevant.

I am unable to correlate your strategy for the coming year, with your "seeing both sides" of the past year.

Nothing personal, I can always appreciate a tolerant and even optimistic outlook on things, but not when history tells me it is potentially unrealistic and the solution is when my investment becomes obsolete.

November 9th, 2009, 05:13 PM	#19
Robert Young Trustee Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Coronado Island Posts: 1,472	It seems to me that the entire Vista, CS4, CF4 landscape has been a bit of a minefield for all concerned- MS, Adobe, Cineform, and certainly us end users. Frankly, I believe that these have all turned out to be semi-beta products that simply represent the run up to Win7+CS5+CF5. Not much to do but wait for them to all come on line. In the meantime, I have actually been able to everything that I needed to with Vista64/CS4/CF4/FL faster, more stable, and more easily than I was able to with XP32/CS3/CF3. Surely this will pass... __________________ Bob

November 9th, 2009, 05:59 PM	#20
Martin Rahn Regular Crew Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: Jackson New Jersey Posts: 41	HD Timeline Monitoring I don't mean to pile on, but I will. Whatever happened to the promise of timeline monitoring on an HD TV via Black Magic and PHD4? It isn't even mentioned anymore. It kind of makes me not believe anything I hear from the Cineform boys anymore. First it would work using Aspect. No deal. Now Prospect and still no deal. Marty Rahn

November 9th, 2009, 06:21 PM	#21
David Newman CTO, CineForm Inc. Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Cardiff-by-the-Sea, California Posts: 8,095	CS4 progress delayed that. Fortunately as the new CS4 playback is more like the First Light playback engine, you may have noticed that FL supports Blackmagic cards. So Blackmagic is planned for the new playback engine, but not for CS3. Playback engine has to be first, before I/O cards support. __________________ David Newman -- web: www.gopro.com blog: cineform.blogspot.com -- twitter: twitter.com/David_Newman

November 9th, 2009, 07:39 PM	#22
Andronico Gonzalez New Boot Join Date: Apr 2009 Location: Distrito Federal, Mexico Posts: 12	Hi David, Im in big trouble, I didn't knew the problem with the RT engine in CS4, so I upgrade my software and bring an editor from Argentina to edit a movie. He is having a lot of troubles working, the playback isn't fluid, sometimes clips freezes. If I get back to CS3 the project he has done would not open, but if not he cannot edit in RT. What are the best settings to work in CS4? Hardware upgrade would really help? Im using XP64 SP3, CS4.1, Prospect 4K build 224, Cineform 2048 x 1152 Raw files (SI-2K) with linked .wav stereo audio files, 2 Opteron Dual-Core 2.4 Ghz, 8 GB Ram, Nvidia Quadro FX 3500, 8 HDD Fiber Array. No color matrix, no WB, no LUT, Bilinear, fast playback, normal scroll (not smooth). The editor would only be working with me for 3 more weeks, and I need him to finish the job. Thanks for the help. __________________ ANDRONICO GONZALEZ Director of Photography - Mexico

November 10th, 2009, 10:27 AM	#26
Greg Kubitschek Regular Crew Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: Lincoln, Nebraska Posts: 34	I can certainly feel the pain of others here I saw the 3D demo at the Cineform both at NAB. Impressive, easy, fun really. But that's not at all the work I do. I need Premiere and Cineform to edit my HDV reliably. Let the "other features" come as they may, but lets get the core foundation solid. Its like building a house on a sandy foundation. I have stuck with Cinform because of their continous and open communication, and by using cineform, my footage looks really good. But its time to buckle down and get CS4 fixed and running smoothly. I've been editing since 1996 in the Media 100 days, and have seen some software/hardware blunders, but I have never seen such a train wreck as this Adobe-Cineform software catch up thing as has transpired over the last year. GK

November 9th, 2009, 09:09 PM	#24
Marty Baggen Major Player Join Date: May 2005 Location: monroe, or Posts: 572	Charles... you are a very smart man. I came from the days of DPS Perception. It had a bare bones clip trimmer that was fantastic....and ironically, it integrated with Premiere. Using First Light as a springboard for more editing type functions is a great approach if feasible from an engineering standpoint.

November 10th, 2009, 06:03 AM	#25
William Urschel Regular Crew Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Bee Cave, Texas Posts: 151	A year ago, I purchased CS4, based upon Cineform's PROMISE of having Prospect 4k up to speed shortly to work on it. A YEAR ago. I don't care who is pointing fingers at whom, I'm just not going to trust anything here anymore. Trust is based upon trustworthiness - nuff said! I continue to use CS3 and Prospect 4k as a solid, reliable editor, and then bring the resulting AVIs over to AMECS4 and Encore CS4, again, with solid, reliable results. But I won't be purchasing any more Adobe "upgrade" editions or counting on anything in the future beyond what I have at the moment, until forced to by the complete incompatability of the arrangements I have now with other, related new applications which appear on the market.

November 10th, 2009, 10:28 AM	#27
Stephen Armour Major Player Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Natal, RN, Brasil Posts: 900	First off, I want to thank Cineform for their innovation and even for their new Prospect 3D possibility. In our fast changing market, your creativity and flexibility with change is appreciated and noted. I could mirror though, the frustrations of many here, but know their voices have already been heard by you. Their/our loyalty is a pretty precious thing, especially in light of the rapidly changing technology we use. Having a 3D option will definitely be valuable as the world finally embraces 3D for television/internet/film...but listen to the voices of those here that will eventually use it. If you can keep them satisfied, they will be the core of your future (if compressed HD is even needed for the heart of 3D production). No matter how much you sell "high end" solutions for, your "mid/lower range" is hundreds of times larger I'm sure. They will be the ones to keep you going if technology takes us down the road to "every man's 3D". In the meantime, focus your engineers on us and we'll keep on coming back. __________________ http://lightinaction.org "All in the view of the LION"

November 11th, 2009, 09:28 PM	#28
Dan Herrmann Regular Crew Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: villa park CA Posts: 81	Throwing my two cents in I read through this entire thread and see both sides of the situation. i am sure Cineform does not need Prospect 4 customers to get where they are going. Reading this thread we have a small group of customers raising heck and apparently the mass group of customers still using CS3 and getting along fine. I assume that like previous versions we will continue to get upgraded features and for good-will sake at least a year of 4.x upgrades after the RTE is up on-line. this should carry us through CS5 and by then we will have processors and acquisition codecs that laugh at the need for an intermediate. then cineform will have all the time they need to focus on their engineering of new products for the large market segment.

November 11th, 2009, 10:50 PM	#29
Graham Hickling Trustee Join Date: May 2004 Location: Knoxville, Tennessee Posts: 1,669	CS3 isn't fine under Windows 7, at least for a number of us. http://www.dvinfo.net/forum/cineform...-playback.html I wish they would get around to fixing that, too!