Some questions about Aspect HD

[David Newman]

Yes true 24p is supported. We are assuming a no-HDV 24p source of a source converted to 24 using an external tool (DVFilm, Magic Bullet etc.)

CF24 is something else. If you use CF24 in a pulled down state, avoid anything to enhance the motion cadance issues (i.e. no motion titles or PiP in motion or wipes.) Basically any overlay motion (at the correct 24p rate) will only highlight the errors of the original CF24 acquistion.

After that disclaimer, here is how to use AE to create 24p content from CF24 files. Using Aspect HD 3.0

1) Capture into CineForm Intermediate AVIs (60i for CF24.) Use Premiere or HDLink.

2) Import the CF24 clip into AE.

3) Select the CF24 clip and press Ctrl+F (to open "Interpret Footage")

4) In "Fields and Pulldown": set "Separate Fields" to "Upper Field First"

5) Then click "Guess 3:2 Pulldown", then click OK.

6) Create a 1920x1080 Composition at 23.976p.

7) Render out the Composition to CFHD (remember to scale the output back to 1440x1080.)

You now have a 24p AVI in CFHD.

[Steven White]

Hm. I'll fire a few more questions into the mix:

Question 1:
Steps (1) and (7) both include CFHD compression steps. Currently I can do steps (2) through (6) in AE on the raw MPEG files. Would I not theoretically get superior quality by simply performing steps (2) through (7) on the transport streams - also avoiding one time-consuming render to CFHD? Or would the benefit of doing the reverse pull-down on the CFHD file wind up being computationally more efficient?

Question 2:
In step (6), why are do you recommend a 1920x1080 composition? Wouldn't it make more sense to make a 1440x1080 composition with a PA of 1.33?

Question 3:
Basically, I've done (2) through (6) on my footage rendering to uncompressed files instead of CFHD in (7) but I can't edit this worth beans in real time. (2.8 GHz HT, w/ 1 GB DDR400 RAM, 7200 rpm UDMA5). I expect to upgrade my video storage drives to RAID 0 S-ATA drives. Will this improvement in hard drive speed enable RT editing of uncompressed HD, or is the software implementation of CFHD significantly more efficient that will enable me to edit more effectively?

Question 4:
Does Premiere Pro 1.5.1, equiped with Aspect HD have the appropriate utilities and default settings to edit 1440x1080 24p CFHD files with the same speed as it can handle the 60i CFHD files?

Question 5:
Premiere Pro 1.5 claims to support the Pansonic 24p and 24pA formats. Does this mean Premiere Pro can reverse the 2:3 pulldown as well? If so, can it do it on the CFHD files at 1440x1080 or is the AE solution required?

Comment:
These 7 steps have been awfully time consuming for me on this current project - adding oodles of overhead that I was hoping to reduce by this upgrade path. The problem with this workflow is that I have to do this for EVERY file, if I'm going to do any useful editing (i.e., take selection) in HD. This addition of 100s of renders out of AE so that I can go into Premiere, edit, and come back to AE for special effects sounds more tedious than the inevitable FX work itself. If Aspect HD 3.0 can do pull-down addition, I'm surprised it isn't well-equipped to do pull-down reversal... and seems like a pretty valuable feature to add to a workflow-enhancing product that already does a frame-by-frame re-compression of the video.

Sony clearly implemented CF24 in the hopes people would consider the FX1 for low-budget narrative projects. It seems pretty clear that the Aspect HD product is designed almost exclusively to accomodate an HDV workflow, and I would like to see CF24 fully supported. Proper implementation of pull-down reversal (in both 2:3 and 2:3:3:2) would completely erase any qualms I might have about buying Aspect HD and would make me a happy customer.

[David Newman]

Q1 - MPEG is a pain, CFHD is faster.

Q2 - Default AE installation doesn't support 1.33 PAR (yes there are hacks around it.) This is a workflow to overcome that.

Q3 - Uncompressed is very slow, even with a two drive SATA RAID-0. Uncompressed RGB 24p is 1440x1080x24x3 = 107 MBytes/s; your drives will only sustain 60Mb/s at best (not including other processing tasks.) CFHD is vastly more efficient. Uncompressed workflow is one of the reasons we development CineForm Intermediate (as the antidote.)

Q4 - 24p is faster than 60i. Yes Aspect HD 3.0 can handle this -- with RAID-0 will get up to 4 streams on a fast P4. Simply create a 24p (23.976p) preset using the CineForm RT Engine (set to No Field - Progressive.)

Q5 - Premiere Pro doesn't have the same reverse pull-down options as AE.

Comment: We don't believe reverse pull-down CF24 will be a common filmmaker workflow. But, if we get enough requests from existing registered Aspect HD customers we will consider adding it as a real-time operation upon capture (yes very cool -- but it will take some engineering.) You are not the first to ask, but not many others have requested this (yet.) Become a customer and I will consider you another vote. :)

[Steven White]

>>We don't believe reverse pull-down CF24 will be a common filmmaker workflow.<<

Undoubtedly I agree with you - namely because I suspect the next models of 1080i HDV cams will have true 24p capture, implemented on the 60i stream the same way the DVX and XL2 do - with 2:3 and 2:3:3:2. As such, the "support" won't so much be for CF24 as it will be for "24p HDV"... of which CF24 will eventually become a forgotten pioneer. Of course, that's a way in the future.

>>You are not the first to ask, but not many others have requested this (yet.)<<

I hope they're reading this thread!

>>Become a customer and I will consider you another vote.<<

Ah yes... the ol' shell out $499 and I might give you the software you wanted to buy trick... I bought the camera, you know I'm good for it! ;)

No worries... I understand where you're coming from, and Cineform has been awfully good about providing free upgrades for existing customers. However, it's not like you've got a lot of competition though, and if someone else offered it I'd find it to be a killer feature.

[Michael Stewart]

Ok, this may help some, but here it goes. The way I use AE is I start a project in PPro 1.5 using cineform preset, don't even have to put video on the timeline, save it, open it up (the PPro project) in AE 6.5 and works like a champ for exporting back to PPro. If I bring a file in (CFHD file, interpret footage says "no fields" which is no problem, you don't need to change to upper field first, it will export fine (using the Cineform 1.2 codec of course)

anyway AE is set up with the right aspect ratio(1.33 ) when doing this, so you can create everything in that project, no problem, it still looks squished, but the work around was already covered on this board.


Mike

[David Newman]

Mike,

Problem solved. The first 50 people to download Aspect HD 3.0 got a faulty version of the After Effects module. If you simply download it again and reinstall it will be fine. Sorry for the inconvience.

[Michael Stewart]

Thanks David!


Mike

[Bryan Spinelli]

Has anyone had any experience with the Matrox APVe card or nVidia FX540 using AspectHD? I am curious as to the differences between the two. I would like to have HDTV output along with 2 monitors. The APVe appears to support that configuration, does anyone know about the FX540? I also read somewhere about the APVe not supporting openGL. If so, would this mean the FX540 would provide more power in After Effects?

Any thoughts are appreciated.

[Soroush Shahrokni]

Hello everyone and thanks for a great forum. I have a few questions about Aspect HD and HDV editing in general, maybe David Newman can answer, Id be grateful!

I have pre-ordered a JVC ProHD camera, is 720p/24&25 supported by Aspect HD as I can only see 720p/30 on the specs? Is the ProHD camera supported or will it be in future updates?

Im also building a whole new computer to go with the camera, what do you recommend for HDV editing alongside Aspect HD...dual Xeon, Athlon X2 or Opteron? On the cineform homepage it is recommended to use Xeon or Opteron but it says nothing about Athlon X2, are the Athlon X2 (4400 or 4800) not good enough?

[David Newman]

Aspect HD will support ProHD 720p24/25, but there will likely be another update in time for the camera's release to fully support its features. I believe today's Aspect HD 3.1 has a fair amount of support, as JVC sales staff have been using Aspect HD to demo editing the camera. Again any changes to support Pro HD will be a free upgrade to existing Aspect HD customers.

[David Newman]

As for CPU choices the Althon X2 was only annouced today, so our web site hasn't been updated (give it a month or two :) .) Basically Aspect HD works on any modern CPU (or CPUs.) We only recommend dual proc for Prospect HD as Aspect HD works on P4s or Althons perfectly. You don't need a dual processor system but they also work great. Dual core CPUs are another way to go -- we have tested with dual core Opterons (very nice) so the Althon X2 should be similar.

Plus if you intend to editing 1280x720 p24 or p25 that is significantly easier than 1080i -- with 720p30 footage we got up to 6 streams on last year's P4 -- so expect Aspect HD to offer a nice editing experience (and p24 is 20% easier than p30.)

[Soroush Shahrokni]

WoW, tanks for the fast answers and the good news David, I look forward to your new release for the JVC! :)

Since I must build a new computer I think it will be better to build it future proof. Im leaning towards the Athlon X2 as Ive read great things about it. I guess 24p editing with the Athlon X2 (4800) along Aspect HD will be a great combination...I cant wait to get started! :)

[David Newman]

Building a PC around an Althon X2 will be a very good Aspect HD system. I look forward to having you join the fun as an Aspect HD version user.

[Graham Morton]

I have already posted a few quips on some other threads but the APVe is the only one with true three monitor out or two monitors plus preview simultaniously.

[Joel Corral]

I shot some footage to see how aspect 3.2 would handle the 3:2 pulldown during capture. Either i am not used to how 24p should look or CF24 doesn't do a good job faking 24p or Aspect 3.2 falls short of a proper 3:2 pulldown.

The footage I shot, during any type of movement (subject) there was serious motion blur. Is that the result from CF24? or is 24p footage supposed to be blurred.

Should I raise the shutter speed? I used 1/60th.


Would I get better results performing the pull down in Ppro 1.5.1 / After effects 6.5?

Thanks

joel