Cineform and Vegas (all versions)

[Mark Paschke]

If my final render is going to be TMPGE to DVD and have used Connect HD to edit HD10U footage in Vegas would I render as uncompressed AVI or render using Cineforms codec?

I am trying uncompressed AVI and it seems I am having troubles , ( small black bars and the video stutters

[Dennis Adams]

I'd recommend rendering to CFHD if your source footage is CFHD. For one thing, sections without additional effects will do no-recompress pass-though, which will greatly speed your rendering.

///d@
Sony Media Software

[Tim Ashbrooke]

HI guys

Just have a question... I have some footage from my FX1E that I want to downconvert to a PAL DV avi file. The problem is that The footage from the fx1 is upper field first and DV is lower field first. Isn't this going to produce cadence problems with motion ie. shuddering, wobbling, etc????? If so, how the heck do I get around this? Render to progressive? ???

Thanks heaps
Tim

[Dennis Adams]

Vegas will split apart the HDV fields (upper first), scale them to DV resolution, and reassemble them into DV fields (lower-first).

You should set your Deinterlace Method (in Project Properties) to "Interpolate" for this to look best.

///d@
Sony Media Software

[Tim Ashbrooke]

Hi Dennis

Ahhhhh!! That's nice to know! Thanks so much for your help.

Cheers!
Tim

[Kevin Dooley]

Well, it's official.

According the the article here.

Vegas 6 will integrate the Cineform codec and be able to capture from and print to HDV tape.

Furthermore it will support JVC's new 24p ProHD...

[Mark Woollard]

I captured 94 SECOND m2t clip with Vegas 6, put it on the timeline and rendered to CF Intermediate using the "Good" quality setting. It took 23 MINUTES to render with a final file size of 1.8 Gig. That's 14.7 times longer than real time for Vegas to create a good quality HD file that can be edited efficiently.

I captured the same clip using CineForm HD Link with it set to automatically convert to CF Intermediate (default "Medium" setting). After the real time capture stopped, the conversion process continued for another 55 seconds (149 seconds in total). The final file size was 1.4 Gig. So HD Link took 1.6 times longer than real time to create a good quality HD file that can be edited efficiently.

Why does Vegas take 9 times longer than HD Link to create essentially the same file? OK the Vegas file ended up being 29% larger. But how does this account for Vegas being over 800% slower?

[David Newman]

Where are couple of small reasons why Connect HD is faster (I don't know why it is that much faster -- I was thinking it should only be about 1.5X faster.) Maybe there is a mode and Vegas expert that can help explain the difference (add get you some more performance.)

Here are the few reasons I know that would make Connect HD faster:

1. The conversion in Connect HD is done in the native YUV space -- YUV data is requested from the MPEG stream and same YUV data is encoded into CineForm Intermediate. Vegas is mostly an RGB application, and it currently uses an RGB interface into the CineForm codec. There is nothing wrong with doing this other than conversion times for the MPEGs YUV to RGB to CineForm which internally converts the image back to YUV. The YUV to RGB and back again takes some time (although it shouldn't be much.)

2. Connect HD uses a different MPEG decoder -- we believe is only about 10-15% faster.

3. Even though Vegas is using the same quality setting as Connect HD's "Medium", the resulting file size is larger out of Vegas. There isn't more quality in the Vegas output, the image quality is the same, but the file is formatted differently. The CineForm Intermediate compression does allow for light temporal compression (an additional 20-30%) without impacting quality. This also is also slightly faster for encoding and decoding. Connect HD is using the temporal compression and the Vegas exported CineForm files are not.

CineForm works very closely with the Vegas team -- they are cool guys. We believe more of the Connect HD features will become part of Vegas over time.

[Mark Woollard]

Thanks for the detailed reply, David. I'm leaning toward purchasing HD Connect--an 800% speed difference is justifying the price in my mind. But I'll wait a few days to see if any Vegas gurus can suggest a Vegas-based fix for its tortoise-like speed.

Another factor would get me even closer to buying HD Connect. I've spent about four hours editing the CFDH Intermediate files captured/converted by HD Link. Will I be able to continue working with those files in Vegas once the demo period expires?

[David Newman]

Originally Posted by Mark Woollard

Will I be able to continue working with those files in Vegas once the demo period expires?

Yes. The files do not expire, so can use everything you create with the demo version of Connect HD for as long as you need. Although I do hope you will see the advantages in using Connect HD with Vegas 6.0.

[Gabe Hoeffken]

I have noticed the same slow render times to the Vegas HDV avi format. I thought having built in HDV support would mean better performance not worse. If I were to use HD Connect rather than Vegas, what would the work flow be like? Would I need to apply some sort of color correction for the changes in the way Vegas renders the file (rgb) versus Connect HD (YUV). Thanks for any input.

Aloha,

Gabe

[David Newman]

Connect HD is designed to be a seamless addition to Vegas -- there or no negatives, only positives. The key difference is HDV capture is performed outside of Vegas using HDLink. The HDLink capture operation defaults to automatically converting incoming M2T data to CineForm Intermediate fly on the fly. This is a one step operation save you a lot of time and producing output files that are much faster to editing (plus they work in other apps. like After Effects -- another reason users purchase Connect HD.) You can still use all the Vegas features including M2T capture -- yet you can use HDLink to convert those captured files also (very quickly to.) There are no color conversion issues -- as the codec component within Vegas are the same as those in Connect. Connect simply added high performance capture and converse tools -- as well as licenses the codec for full operation in other Windows applications.

[Gabe Hoeffken]

David, thanks for the speedy reply. I think I will be going back to Connect HD for HDVcapture for now. Vegas 6 also becomes very stuttery during HDV capture, & I don't remember having that happen w/ connect HD. Enjoy the holiday.

Aloha,

Gabe

[Mitja Popovski]

HI

can you please tell me what is the proper way of editing 25p? I record 25p(with speed 50 because it gives less motion stuttering) on my Z1, then i capture(with hdlink) progressive rate, change 25p to 24p. Do i need to check remove 3:2 pulldown or not? Then I edit in vegas with hdv 50i project settings changed to 24 and to progressive,correct?. How do I export to m2t? for export to my Z1, do I export 50i or 24p?

I always capture m2t first, then recompress to cineform. Are prefs in hdlink only for converting m2t to avi?If i capture m2t with 25progressive option, is this file any different from m2t captured with 25i option.Does the change happen in converting process?

I tried to export progressive 25p m2t from vegas but it doesnt work i guess it always has to be 50i, but then i don't understand whay to edit in progressive if i have to export 50i back to tape. I understand it makes sence if i export to DVD progressive or wm9 progressive.

Thanks for any help
Mitja

[David Newman]

If you capture using CineFrame 25, you should NOT remove pulldown as that is only a technique required for CineFrame 24. 3:2 Pulldown is a frame sequence that allows 24p to work in 60Hz systems. CineFrame 25 is a 50Hz system, no pulldown needs to be removed.

If you intend to go back to M2T tape, you should not do a 25 to 24p conversion. 24p workflows are best for projects that need 24p NTSC DVD or film output.

If you have progressive source material like CineFrame 25 you are recommended to use the Progressive option within HDLink. The compression is even higher quality for progressive image sources. This is one of the benefits for purchasing Connect HD or Aspect HD. Note: you can use interlaced compression on progressive sources, but visa versa is not recommended.

Editing progressiving gives a different look for any motion effects like titles, PiPs and transitions. Each frames is processed discretely, without dividing the image into two fields. Vegas should be able to perform progressive processing while delivering a compliant M2T HDV output (which is 50i.) If Vegas is not able to do this, you need to report a bug to Sony. Progressive frames are completely compatible with interlaced systems, so you are doing the correct thing.