optimizing ConnectHD & Vegas

[Jim Arthurs]

I've posted a mostly similar question in the Sony Vegas forum, but just found this specific Cineform forum...

I'm getting marginal playback of the Cineform ConnectHD beta and Vegas working together on my dual 3.0 Xeon playing 1080 60i clips...

( 2gig ram, 5800Geforce 128meg video card, 1 terrabyte SATA array for storage averaging 220 Meg/sec reads and 202 Meg/sec writes based on a TYAN S2090 Trinity mobo.)

In preferences, I've cranked up dynamic video ram in Vegas to 1 gig.

Okay, my problem... only cofiguration that will run 29.97 (but not at a rock-solid frame rate) is with the project setting at 1440 by 1080, upper field first, PAR of 1.3333. With the preview window set to Preview/Auto and "simulate device aspect ratio" I can just barely run at frame rate. Problem is, the display is terrible to look at because the "simulate device aspect ratio" is just doing some line doubling horizontally to simulate the full width. lines crossing screen are very steppy.

If my project settings are the Vegas default 1080-60i preset, then I simply can't get more than 15fps.

Also, the Cineform AVI's aren't imported with info regarding correct PAR, you have to adjust them by hand to 1.333. Even though the ConnectHD manual mentions this, it's more hand work to adjust each clip.

Raw .m2t's/MPG's will alert Vegas properly, I wish the Cineform AVI's did as well.

In addition, Vegas can't determine field order on the Cineform AVI's.

What can I do to optimize my settings that I'm not already doing?

Regards,

Jim Arthurs

[Thad Huston]

Jim,

The default playback size in vegas is less than half the true resolution of the file. Scale up the size so that it is about 1/2 resolution. I think if you drag the edges of the preview window up and to the left so that the playback size is like 720x540 then you will get the best performance.

That said, full framerate playback on one stream is probably about pretty close to the best you are going to get on that system. While connect HD is about 3 times faster than editing the native MPEG in Vegas, it is still not as fast as Aspect HD with the RT plugins we have for Premiere.

Regarding the configuration issues, we put all that config information into our manual at Sony's request. Those are mostly settings they told us we would need to do with the 1.333 PAR. This is a Vegas issue that I assume they will fix in Vegas 6.

Thad H.
CineForm Support

[Ben Buie]

First, you are better off setting the dynamic RAM preview to 0. Unless you actually use the dynamic RAM preview feature (you goto Tools->Build Dynamic RAM Preview), leaving this setting at 1GB is doing nothing for you. You are just dedicating extra memory to a feature you aren't using, which could compromise the performance of your system. I have actually experimented and watched the task manager, and for some reason Vegas starts to grab all the memory in the system when you have the dynamic RAM preview set to a high number, even when theoretically it isn't being used for anything.

Thad is correct, make sure you are working at preview
window sizes that are exact integer divisons of the project resolution. For example, exactly 1/2, or exactly 1/4. The math is much easier on the CPU that way.

At 1080i you are probably better off working 90% of the time with a 1/4 size window, which is still plenty big to work with.

This is yet another reason Sony should have stuck with 720p. I know for marketing reasons they had to feel like they were besting JVC, but the added resolution of 1080i is negated by the fact that a) it is interpolated, and b) it is not progressive scan. Thus, the actual resolution of the Sony camera doesn't end up being that much higher than the HD10, but it requires much more horespower to edit. Not to mention 90% of the displays are 1280x720 native, not 1920x1080.

In my mind the FX1 would have been a PERFECT HDV solution if they would have stuck with 720p. Everything else on the camcorder is head and shoulders above the HD10, but I'm hesitant to give up my 720p!

When we get our FX1, the first thing I'll do with all my clips is use Cineform and render out to 720p and work in that format. Thad, any reason this would give me bad results? What are the recommended Vegas settings for going from 1080i PAR 1.33 to 720p square pixels? Is there a preferred deinterlacing setting?

Thanks,

Ben

<<<-- Originally posted by Jim Arthurs : I've posted a mostly similar question in the Sony Vegas forum, but just found this specific Cineform forum...

I'm getting marginal playback of the Cineform ConnectHD beta and Vegas working together on my dual 3.0 Xeon playing 1080 60i clips...

( 2gig ram, 5800Geforce 128meg video card, 1 terrabyte SATA array for storage averaging 220 Meg/sec reads and 202 Meg/sec writes based on a TYAN S2090 Trinity mobo.)

In preferences, I've cranked up dynamic video ram in Vegas to 1 gig.

Okay, my problem... only cofiguration that will run 29.97 (but not at a rock-solid frame rate) is with the project setting at 1440 by 1080, upper field first, PAR of 1.3333. With the preview window set to Preview/Auto and "simulate device aspect ratio" I can just barely run at frame rate. Problem is, the display is terrible to look at because the "simulate device aspect ratio" is just doing some line doubling horizontally to simulate the full width. lines crossing screen are very steppy.

If my project settings are the Vegas default 1080-60i preset, then I simply can't get more than 15fps.

Also, the Cineform AVI's aren't imported with info regarding correct PAR, you have to adjust them by hand to 1.333. Even though the ConnectHD manual mentions this, it's more hand work to adjust each clip.

Raw .m2t's/MPG's will alert Vegas properly, I wish the Cineform AVI's did as well.

In addition, Vegas can't determine field order on the Cineform AVI's.

What can I do to optimize my settings that I'm not already doing?

Regards,

Jim Arthurs -->>>

[John Gaspain]

scan your system for resource eating spyware with Adaware.

http://www.lavasoftusa.com/software/adaware/

[John Gaspain]

oh yea, your dual system doesnt utilize both CPU's in Vegas like you might think it should.

It only separates the audio render on one cpu and the video on the other.

Essentially the dual system is useless in Vegas

read here for more
http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthrea...threadid=36098

[Dennis Adams]

Jim:

Once you've gone into Media Properties for a clip and changed it to PAR=1.3333 and Upper First, click the little disk icon to save that profile. In the future, when Vegas sees AVI 1440x1080 it will automatically pick up those settings.

There's an update coming out soon that has this profile built-in, as well as some other HDV improvements.

///d@
Sony Media Software

[Jim Arthurs]

Thanks to all who replied; in order...

Thad - sounds like I'd be better editing with Vegas with a faster, single P4. I've seen plenty posts of people claiming great performance using notebooks, to dual 2.4gig Xeons, to a claim of three instances of Vegas running solid frame-rate on a dual 3.6 Xeon. I'm highly suspect of ALL of these based on my experience so far.

Bottom line, taking everyone's advice in hand, I'm still where I started with, barely 29.97 with Preview, Auto, and 720 by 540 preview size.

Will upgrading to AspectHD be an option with Vegas, or will that be Premiere only?

Also, any reason ConnectHD can't recognize a .m2t when it's renamed to .mpg? I imagine you're saving a few lines of code by just going off an extention, but why not have your code actually check the file structure? All of my .m2t's were renamed to .mpg... so I had to rename them back. :)

Ben - Dynamic RAM size doesn't seem to have an impact on my preview speeds. The ONLY reason I set it high was it was one of Douglas Spotted Eagle's HDV editing tips for better frame rates at his HDV Portal.

1/4 preview doesn't play any better for me than 1/2 preview... though 1/4 preview is postage stamp sized on my HP 2335 23" LCD monitor.

As to your desire to work in 720p... I don't think ConnectHD allows for size scaling when creating the .avi from the .m2t. You'd have to load up the raw .m2t's into Vegas, then render out to the Cineform codec at 1280 by 720, upper field first, square pixel. (this is for interlaced material, if you want 720p, you'll have to stick with CF30 or CF25 source... no way to get around a "blended" field look in Vegas.

John - thanks for the suggestion of AdAware... Yes, I know Vegas isn't using my dual to best it's ability... few software is REALLY multiprossessor savvy. Digital Fusion and Max are two of the best examples... After Effects and Lightwave to lesser degrees.

Dennis... glad to hear about the Vegas update. I didn't know about that tip to associate media with settings. Thanks.

I really hope you can improve the quality of "Simulate Aspect Ratio" when dealing with 1440 by 1080 material and viewing as 16:9. Right now it's very stair-steppy and distracting.

Also, I hope you can make some changes with the way Vegas understands 3:2. Right now it only recognizes 3:2 if the files are flagged that way. What about something digitzed from tape that came from a film transfer without any "meta-data"? You should provide a method of manually selecting a proper cadence for removal, similar to After Effects or Digital Fusion.

While on 3:2... the only way to add it back into a render is via certain pre-sets that have it. It would be nice to have it as a feature for ANY render.

Thanks,

Jim Arthurs

[Dennis Adams]

Jim:

Noted, thanks.

///d@

[Thad Huston]

Jim,

Unfortunately Aspect HD is specifically a Premiere Product. If vegas goes to a more plugin based architecture in the future your request might be possible in one way or another....however I know of no plans to do this.t At this point though I think Vegas users best bet performance will be out of Connect HD.... hence sony's deal with us to sell it......

Thad H.
CineForm Support

[Dennis Adams]

Jim, some futher thoughts...

<<<-- Originally posted by Jim Arthurs : Also, I hope you can make some changes with the way Vegas understands 3:2. Right now it only recognizes 3:2 if the files are flagged that way. What about something digitzed from tape that came from a film transfer without any "meta-data"? You should provide a method of manually selecting a proper cadence for removal, similar to After Effects or Digital Fusion.-->>>

Vegas 5 already does this, for DV material. In the Media Pool, right click and select File Format Properties. You can pick the cadence.

<<<--While on 3:2... the only way to add it back into a render is via certain pre-sets that have it. It would be nice to have it as a feature for ANY render. -->>>

As a work-around, if you have a 24p clip on the timeline, and you disable resampling for it (event property), then render to 60i, Vegas will end up creating 2:3 pulldown as a side effect of the non-resampled frame-to-field repeats.

Cheers,

///d@
Sony Media Software

[Ken Hodson]

Is your dual system 533 or 800 bus?