David Newman/Cineform

Mark Kubat · November 23rd, 2004, 06:33 AM

Hi David...

We've been eagerly keeping track....

Is it fair to ask you guys to indicate timing a bit more specifically? Here, let's make it easy - please select which of the following that is most appropriate!!!

Seems like writing FX1 transport streams back isn't easy?

*Note: "slightly-buggy" is okay - by 100%, I'm talking about being able to "go all the way" with the editing process...

Q: Cineform Connect HD will 100% support Sony FX1/Z1U format (ie. full capturing and writing of transport streams, both ways, into Vegas, out of Vegas back onto tape as HDV) most likey....

a) by the end of November 2004.

b) by the year (Dec. 31st 2004)

c) by end of January 2005

d) by the time the Z1U ships around Feb. 2005

Please, Cineform - a, b, c or d?

David Newman · November 23rd, 2004, 10:47 AM

Clearly is not appropriate for us to speculate publicly when Sony HDV exports back to the camera will be support. Everyone seems to be having difficulties with send edited content back to the camera, yet we are making good progress.

For Connect HD and Vegas we have capturing down now in the beta version (a couple of bugs to be fixed before it will be a release version.) However, for Vegas the export to Sony HDV is being handled by the Sony Vegas team not by CineForm. For Aspect HD CineForm is developing the HD2 export module. It will be interesting who succeeds first. :)

Frederic Lumiere · November 23rd, 2004, 11:03 AM

I am by no means speaking for David or Cineform but for all software developers who strive to deliver good products (which I know includes Cineform).

We are trying our best. This is new technology and therefore unpredictable.

If it takes companies like Apple and Adobe years to support the format natively there are reasons.

When will support for Sony's HDV cameras be released?

When it's ready.

Sorry, I don't mean any disrespect but if you are dissatisfied with the slow NLE support for these new cameras, I recommend you call the camera manufacturer and ask them why they sell cameras without editing solutions.

We are doing our best with the very little and late support we are getting from the manufacturers. I don't think that the camera owner's inability to edit their material is a reflection of our inneficiencies but rather a a lack of foresight from camera manufacturers.

I know I sound a bit defensive but getting hundreds of calls and emails per week asking the same question, when will it be ready?..often from the same people, is getting old.

Let's keep in mind that without solutions like Cineform and Lumiere HD, we'd still be unable to edit HDV, 2 years after the first camera being released.

Mark Kubat · November 23rd, 2004, 05:25 PM

Well, thanks for the reply guys...

Hmmm...

Fred, likewise no disrespect back to you - but if Sony had their s*** together, you really wouldn't have a company, would you? I mean, come on, the only reason I am even having to remotely consider something like third-party intermediary format is because native mpeg m2t stream editing is a b**** - hence the necessary evil of having to convert to say a "visually perfect" codec or something like that as an extra step in terms of time and resources ie. hard-drive space.

From reading around here of late, I'm really glad I'm not a Mac guy - it seems to be the Mac side of things is so far really getting shafted comparatively speaking when it comes to HDV.

Frederic, I must commend you - you and your company's efforts are probably keeping a lot of Mac people from switching over - you are a shining light on an otherwise dark landscape - I guess that's why it's called "lumiere?" The first confirmed way to capture Sony's HDV was Kaku Ito's work with existing lumiere in Japan - so way to go! I for one could not fathom how Sony Vegas can edit Sony HDV but cannot capture it. Oh well.

But you know, in some ways, the replies here are wishy-washy. No offense, but certainly, your companies must be privately-held because there's no way public companies with shareholders would stand for such vague responses from their respective "higher-up's."

You guys were privy to the specs waaaay in advance of the camera's/format's actual release - waaay more than enough time to figure things out and come up with some nifty solutions to a few new problems... Surely Sony would have anticipated that people want to edit/work with this footage so it's not like it's some impossible-to-decipher format?

The camera was announced back in Feb. 2004/March at CeBIT in Germany and I'm sure there must have been an opportunity to get some specs and preliminaries sorted out over the past, what, 8 or 9 months? Guys, you can get a whole human being from scratch in that time! And it's not like we're talking about sending a capsule to the moon here.

I really don't think it was unrealistic to have expected solutions from Cineform and Lumiere to "hit the floor running" the moment the first FX1 was shipped out of B&H... But then again, I didn't think it was unrealistic for the Canon XL2 to have been HDV either back in the summer, so what do I know?

Believe it or not, I'm starting to get used to editing native transport streams in Vegas. Sure, it's painful, but I use other proggies like Pegasys tmpgenc etc. and you know, it's an echo of when mini-dv first came on the scene and firewire capture cards were flightly and depending on which chipset you had, etc. etc... before OHCI became a "standard" - wow, those were the days!

Guys, please stand to come up with something soon.

Otherwise, I can tell you, I will buy the Avel link WMVHD player and happily let my Sony HDV projects render out overnight to disc and never look back... And I know I won't be the only one!

I can't believe I'm actually having to now consider, for the very first time, something like Pinnacle... Sure, there are bugs, but yes, guys, it IS a race! They've got something out the door and surely their programmers aren't really any brighter than yours???

Frederic - I sympathisize with your frustrations about "late support" from manufacturers. Well, the cam's out now - you guys can take it apart, etc. and I'm sure Sony has given you guys all the specs you need - here's a thought: maybe put your top guy on it and he can write some code on Sunday afternoon while catching the football games and "case-closed", eh? Isn't that why customers are paying you guys the big bucks for your solutions?

No offense, but gosh, maybe I should take a weekend or two, learn some C++, and write some wavelet conversion s*** and offer it for free like CapDVHS.... Ha ha - I'm sure Sony didn't see that one coming. I went to Sony Canada's Roadshow today and wow, talk about letting one slip under the radar - I'm sure if Sony would have thought for a second that there was a viable way to use existing freeware to capture into Vegas WITHOUT having to wait for a bona-fide Sony Vegas HDV capture software, they would have made some final tweak to cripple the HDV format so that everyone would have to wait for the "official" solution...

But I'm just a cynic, though.

Well, clearly I'm a bit frustrated. Hope it's been a fun read. Bartender, another double.

But honestly, guys, thank you for your work - I guess it's really tougher than expected - we'll be waiting with baited breath and try not to email too many more times...

But come on, can't someone honestly pick a, b, c or d????

Is that really too much to ask?

Who wants my $$$$?

David Newman · November 23rd, 2004, 05:50 PM

A larger public company would have ignored your questions entirely. Only smaller firms where the principals are the ones on the forums like this would even dare to post and be a little vague with their answers if they want. :) This is fun time, the big firms have a lot of catching up to do for even their first generation of HDV editing products. At CineForm we been shipping HDV tools for nearly 18 months, and have now shipped Prospect HD products for high-end TV and film production (which is awesome fun.) So one day we may actually grow beyond daily forum visits. :)

Gary McClurg · November 23rd, 2004, 06:13 PM

David, how bout some Mac stuff?

Frederic Lumiere · November 23rd, 2004, 06:15 PM

Mark,

It sounds to me like you really know your stuff. Go fot it, you should be able to develop a solution in no time.

Rob Lohman · November 24th, 2004, 05:52 AM

A few days to write wavelet stuff? Man, I have been programming
for 10+ years and I can tell you that this stuff ain't easy.
However, I'm not here to debate whether software should be
out or not or whether the manufacturers should've brought the
camera's out already or not.

I keep wondering more and more why people are so obsessed
with the leading edge and then start to complain (this is NOT
targetting to anyone in particular!!) that they can't work with it.

Ehm... yeah, there is a reason it is called LEADING EDGE.

You ARE the first to try it out and find problems and workarounds.

Personally I would not buy these products yet since there is no
good editing support (for example). That's a good enough reason
for me not to buy this stuff. So either someone who is buying it
hasn't done their homework or can wait till support comes out.

So if people start complaining they just haven't done their
homework in my very humble opinion.

The same is happening with the XL2. People just don't take the
time to take it all in and learn a camera. As soon as the XL2 was
announced people wanted the PAL version for "higher resolution",
although they have been screaming for 24p (PAL is 25p!) for
years. And then people start "complaining" how they are seeing
moire patterns (yes, that is a thing you will have to live with with
higer resolution) for example.

Now it is okay if you don't want moire, that's a choice you can
make. However, if you are an early adaptor then you are
the person that is going to find out about such things (and no,
moire is not a defect!). So if you do, get over it and live with it or
sell the camera. If you don't want to find such unpleasant things
then either do your homework and/or wait till a product is well
established so you know what the issues are and what will and
will not work (for you).

Okay, I'm done ranting...

Chris Hurd · November 24th, 2004, 07:49 AM

Mark:

<< maybe put your top guy on it and he can write some code on Sunday afternoon while catching the football games >>

Most coders I have known in my professional life would be very fortunate if they had a Sunday afternoon off -- from coding -- to catch a football game.

<< if Sony had their s*** together, you really wouldn't have a company, would you? >>

Actually, considering that part of Frederic's illustrious past included a stint as CIO for the highly successful Hooked On Phonics business, I'm fairly certain that he *would* have a company doing one thing or another no matter what.

Thanks again to David and Frederic for their highly valued participation here.

November 23rd, 2004, 06:33 AM	#1
Mark Kubat Major Player Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Toronto, Canada Posts: 375	David Newman/Cineform - please check here... Hi David... We've been eagerly keeping track.... Is it fair to ask you guys to indicate timing a bit more specifically? Here, let's make it easy - please select which of the following that is most appropriate!!! Seems like writing FX1 transport streams back isn't easy? *Note: "slightly-buggy" is okay - by 100%, I'm talking about being able to "go all the way" with the editing process... Q: Cineform Connect HD will 100% support Sony FX1/Z1U format (ie. full capturing and writing of transport streams, both ways, into Vegas, out of Vegas back onto tape as HDV) most likey.... a) by the end of November 2004. b) by the year (Dec. 31st 2004) c) by end of January 2005 d) by the time the Z1U ships around Feb. 2005 Please, Cineform - a, b, c or d?

November 23rd, 2004, 10:47 AM	#2
David Newman CTO, CineForm Inc. Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Cardiff-by-the-Sea, California Posts: 8,095	Clearly is not appropriate for us to speculate publicly when Sony HDV exports back to the camera will be support. Everyone seems to be having difficulties with send edited content back to the camera, yet we are making good progress. For Connect HD and Vegas we have capturing down now in the beta version (a couple of bugs to be fixed before it will be a release version.) However, for Vegas the export to Sony HDV is being handled by the Sony Vegas team not by CineForm. For Aspect HD CineForm is developing the HD2 export module. It will be interesting who succeeds first. :) __________________ David Newman -- web: www.gopro.com blog: cineform.blogspot.com -- twitter: twitter.com/David_Newman

November 23rd, 2004, 05:25 PM	#4
Mark Kubat Major Player Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Toronto, Canada Posts: 375	David, Frederic thanks.... Well, thanks for the reply guys... Hmmm... Fred, likewise no disrespect back to you - but if Sony had their s* together, you really wouldn't have a company, would you? I mean, come on, the only reason I am even having to remotely consider something like third-party intermediary format is because native mpeg m2t stream editing is a b - hence the necessary evil of having to convert to say a "visually perfect" codec or something like that as an extra step in terms of time and resources ie. hard-drive space. From reading around here of late, I'm really glad I'm not a Mac guy - it seems to be the Mac side of things is so far really getting shafted comparatively speaking when it comes to HDV. Frederic, I must commend you - you and your company's efforts are probably keeping a lot of Mac people from switching over - you are a shining light on an otherwise dark landscape - I guess that's why it's called "lumiere?" The first confirmed way to capture Sony's HDV was Kaku Ito's work with existing lumiere in Japan - so way to go! I for one could not fathom how Sony Vegas can edit Sony HDV but cannot capture it. Oh well. But you know, in some ways, the replies here are wishy-washy. No offense, but certainly, your companies must be privately-held because there's no way public companies with shareholders would stand for such vague responses from their respective "higher-up's." You guys were privy to the specs waaaay in advance of the camera's/format's actual release - waaay more than enough time to figure things out and come up with some nifty solutions to a few new problems... Surely Sony would have anticipated that people want to edit/work with this footage so it's not like it's some impossible-to-decipher format? The camera was announced back in Feb. 2004/March at CeBIT in Germany and I'm sure there must have been an opportunity to get some specs and preliminaries sorted out over the past, what, 8 or 9 months? Guys, you can get a whole human being from scratch in that time! And it's not like we're talking about sending a capsule to the moon here. I really don't think it was unrealistic to have expected solutions from Cineform and Lumiere to "hit the floor running" the moment the first FX1 was shipped out of B&H... But then again, I didn't think it was unrealistic for the Canon XL2 to have been HDV either back in the summer, so what do I know? Believe it or not, I'm starting to get used to editing native transport streams in Vegas. Sure, it's painful, but I use other proggies like Pegasys tmpgenc etc. and you know, it's an echo of when mini-dv first came on the scene and firewire capture cards were flightly and depending on which chipset you had, etc. etc... before OHCI became a "standard" - wow, those were the days! Guys, please stand to come up with something soon. Otherwise, I can tell you, I will buy the Avel link WMVHD player and happily let my Sony HDV projects render out overnight to disc and never look back... And I know I won't be the only one! I can't believe I'm actually having to now consider, for the very first time, something like Pinnacle... Sure, there are bugs, but yes, guys, it IS a race! They've got something out the door and surely their programmers aren't really any brighter than yours??? Frederic - I sympathisize with your frustrations about "late support" from manufacturers. Well, the cam's out now - you guys can take it apart, etc. and I'm sure Sony has given you guys all the specs you need - here's a thought: maybe put your top guy on it and he can write some code on Sunday afternoon while catching the football games and "case-closed", eh? Isn't that why customers are paying you guys the big bucks for your solutions? No offense, but gosh, maybe I should take a weekend or two, learn some C++, and write some wavelet conversion s* and offer it for free like CapDVHS.... Ha ha - I'm sure Sony didn't see that one coming. I went to Sony Canada's Roadshow today and wow, talk about letting one slip under the radar - I'm sure if Sony would have thought for a second that there was a viable way to use existing freeware to capture into Vegas WITHOUT having to wait for a bona-fide Sony Vegas HDV capture software, they would have made some final tweak to cripple the HDV format so that everyone would have to wait for the "official" solution... But I'm just a cynic, though. Well, clearly I'm a bit frustrated. Hope it's been a fun read. Bartender, another double. But honestly, guys, thank you for your work - I guess it's really tougher than expected - we'll be waiting with baited breath and try not to email too many more times... But come on, can't someone honestly pick a, b, c or d???? Is that really too much to ask? Who wants my $$$$?

November 23rd, 2004, 05:50 PM	#5
David Newman CTO, CineForm Inc. Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Cardiff-by-the-Sea, California Posts: 8,095	A larger public company would have ignored your questions entirely. Only smaller firms where the principals are the ones on the forums like this would even dare to post and be a little vague with their answers if they want. :) This is fun time, the big firms have a lot of catching up to do for even their first generation of HDV editing products. At CineForm we been shipping HDV tools for nearly 18 months, and have now shipped Prospect HD products for high-end TV and film production (which is awesome fun.) So one day we may actually grow beyond daily forum visits. :) __________________ David Newman -- web: www.gopro.com blog: cineform.blogspot.com -- twitter: twitter.com/David_Newman

November 24th, 2004, 05:52 AM	#8
Rob Lohman RED Code Chef Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Holland Posts: 12,514	A few days to write wavelet stuff? Man, I have been programming for 10+ years and I can tell you that this stuff ain't easy. However, I'm not here to debate whether software should be out or not or whether the manufacturers should've brought the camera's out already or not. I keep wondering more and more why people are so obsessed with the leading edge and then start to complain (this is NOT targetting to anyone in particular!!) that they can't work with it. Ehm... yeah, there is a reason it is called LEADING EDGE. You ARE the first to try it out and find problems and workarounds. Personally I would not buy these products yet since there is no good editing support (for example). That's a good enough reason for me not to buy this stuff. So either someone who is buying it hasn't done their homework or can wait till support comes out. So if people start complaining they just haven't done their homework in my very humble opinion. The same is happening with the XL2. People just don't take the time to take it all in and learn a camera. As soon as the XL2 was announced people wanted the PAL version for "higher resolution", although they have been screaming for 24p (PAL is 25p!) for years. And then people start "complaining" how they are seeing moire patterns (yes, that is a thing you will have to live with with higer resolution) for example. Now it is okay if you don't want moire, that's a choice you can make. However, if you are an early adaptor then you are the person that is going to find out about such things (and no, moire is not a defect!). So if you do, get over it and live with it or sell the camera. If you don't want to find such unpleasant things then either do your homework and/or wait till a product is well established so you know what the issues are and what will and will not work (for you). Okay, I'm done ranting... __________________ Rob Lohman, visuar@iname.com DV Info Wrangler & RED Code Chef Join the DV Challenge \| Lady X Search DVinfo.net for quick answers \| Buy from the best: DVinfo.net sponsors

November 23rd, 2004, 11:03 AM	#3
Frederic Lumiere Wrangler Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Point Pleasant, NJ Posts: 437	I am by no means speaking for David or Cineform but for all software developers who strive to deliver good products (which I know includes Cineform). We are trying our best. This is new technology and therefore unpredictable. If it takes companies like Apple and Adobe years to support the format natively there are reasons. When will support for Sony's HDV cameras be released? When it's ready. Sorry, I don't mean any disrespect but if you are dissatisfied with the slow NLE support for these new cameras, I recommend you call the camera manufacturer and ask them why they sell cameras without editing solutions. We are doing our best with the very little and late support we are getting from the manufacturers. I don't think that the camera owner's inability to edit their material is a reflection of our inneficiencies but rather a a lack of foresight from camera manufacturers. I know I sound a bit defensive but getting hundreds of calls and emails per week asking the same question, when will it be ready?..often from the same people, is getting old. Let's keep in mind that without solutions like Cineform and Lumiere HD, we'd still be unable to edit HDV, 2 years after the first camera being released.

November 23rd, 2004, 06:13 PM	#6
Gary McClurg Major Player Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: Springfield, MO, USA Posts: 389	David, how bout some Mac stuff?

November 23rd, 2004, 06:15 PM	#7
Frederic Lumiere Wrangler Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Point Pleasant, NJ Posts: 437	Mark, It sounds to me like you really know your stuff. Go fot it, you should be able to develop a solution in no time.

November 24th, 2004, 07:49 AM	#9
Chris Hurd Obstreperous Rex Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: San Marcos, TX Posts: 27,368 Images: 513	Mark: << maybe put your top guy on it and he can write some code on Sunday afternoon while catching the football games >> Most coders I have known in my professional life would be very fortunate if they had a Sunday afternoon off -- from coding -- to catch a football game. << if Sony had their s*** together, you really wouldn't have a company, would you? >> Actually, considering that part of Frederic's illustrious past included a stint as CIO for the highly successful Hooked On Phonics business, I'm fairly certain that he would have a company doing one thing or another no matter what. Thanks again to David and Frederic for their highly valued participation here. __________________ CH Search DV Info Net \| 20 years of DVi \| ...Tuesday is Soylent Green Day!