suuport for COnvergent Designs nano flash? at DVinfo.net

Marty Hudzik · August 27th, 2009, 09:30 AM

I have a project in the near future that may require a signicant increase in color depth to obtain the desired results, and as such I am looking into the CD nanoflash device to acquire 4:2:2 from my Canon XLh1. As such, I would want to use one of the high bitrate modes, either 100mbs or 160mbps. However I use PRemiere PRo to edit and it supposedly only supports the 35mbs mode of the Nano Flash. Can I use Cinefrom as an intermediate codec to get around this limitation? Sorry if this has been covered. This came up fast I need to come up with a viable solution even faster.

Marty

Chad Haufschild · August 28th, 2009, 11:46 AM

Hello, Marty. I'm researching the NanoFlash myself for exactly the same reason. I'm using a different camera, however, so my info may or may not help you in it's implementation. But as a Cineform user for the past three, I do have some input for you.

The current version of ProspectHD can convert XDCAM HD mxf files to the Cineform intermediate. The NanoFlash can record to mfx so you're good to go there. Once it's converted to Cineform, PPro will edit it flawlessly.

I don't know what your project is, but CD just implemented 24p pulldown from the 1080i60 stream of your camera. Good news for indie filmmakers.

Hope that helps.

Marty Hudzik · August 29th, 2009, 01:11 PM

Chad,
Thanks for the reply. I do understand that cineform handles .mxf files, but from what I understand from my research is that the nanoflash uses extended bitrates for their mxf files. 100mbps is the common one but can actually go to 160mbps for i-frame based compression. The Convergent website says Adobe PRemiere pro only supports up to the 35mbps version which is common for the Sony EX cameras.

So I am trying to verify that the Cineform process will recognize these non-standard bitrates for mxf. I know on the Mac these files are detected as 50mbps since that is the limitation that Final Cut can see, but Convergent has just tricked FCP to think it is 50mbps but is really 100mbps or 160mbps. Anyone have any ideas on this for Cineform?

Thanks

Craig Davidson · August 29th, 2009, 03:08 PM

Are you looking at Premier Pro on the PC or Mac?

Marty Hudzik · August 30th, 2009, 06:35 AM

I am on a PC. If I was on a Mac I'd be using FCP instead of Premiere so this would not even be a question.

Alan Emery · August 30th, 2009, 07:48 AM

Hi Marty,

I am in exactly the same position (PC PPRO CS4). I however, took the plunge and ordered a nanoFlash. According to Convergent Design, the mxf files are not fully compatible with Adobe except at 35 Mbps 4:2:0. They are in conversation with Adobe and also Main Concept. Both Adobe and Main Concept are working on getting the codec ready. Main Concept made a preliminary attempt, but it apparently doesn't work past about 2 1/2 minutes.

According to CD, both Adobe and Main Concept are hoping to be ready in September; Adobe with a preset and main Concept with a plug-in. I am anxiously awaiting the news!

Alan

Marty Hudzik · August 30th, 2009, 08:02 AM

I understand that the .mxf file from the Nano Flash are not directly compatible because of higher bitrates. However, if Cineform can read the .mxf files properly and convert to Cineform Intermediate properly, would this not work? I do know that Cineform can read .mxf files but I am not sure if it can read the high bitrate ones from Nano flash so that it can convert it.

Can someone post a 100mb stream sample from the nano flash? I can post a website that will allow for large uploads if you send me a direct message. I'd really like to test since I already own CS3/Cs4 and Cineform Prospect HD.

THanks.

Ray Bell · August 30th, 2009, 09:11 AM

Marty... the files are on the convergent design website.. click on the Nano pic and down
at the bottom are both MXF and MOV files...

I'm testing them now.. Cineform does convert the files but I suspect the header on the
original footage is going to cause Cineform an issue... I think Convergent does this to
fake out the NLEs

Ray Bell · August 30th, 2009, 11:22 AM

OK.. just finished my testing...

I downloaded from the Convergent Design website the file "Motorcycle3 MXF"
that is 1080i59.94 (100Mbit Long-Gop)

I ran the file through Cineform HDLink, output "AVI" with quality "Film Scan"

I then opened Premiere Pro CS3 with a timeline setup using Cineform preset of
1440x1080p 30 and brought in the footage.
The footage has some audio but is just noise, so I ungrouped the audio and deleted the audio on the timeline...

Note: The footage came into Premier and did not require any rendering (no red line on the timeline)

Then I exported the timeline to AVI format and for the Cineform export settings
I used " High HD optimized " and "enable 444 encoding" .

I then used Premier Pro to show me the details of the files....

The original file from Convergent Design is 100mb 1080i59.94 (MXF-Long GOP)
The HDLink converted file from Cineform shows as 167mb 1080 29.95 (AVI)
The Premiere Pro file export shows as 250mb 1080 29.95 (AVI)

I'm sure your noticing the upgrade from 100mb all the way to 250mb using the Cineform
conversion...

I also put the 250mb AVI on the timeline and worked in some color adjustments to see how
the footage would hold up... the results are great...

What is interesting is that on the Convergent Design Website it specs the Premier Pro NLE as 35mb 4:2:0 only, so utilizing Premier Pro by itself would be detrimental to the original
100mb footage, but using Cineform the footage is boosted to 250mb 4:4:4 using the settings I used... its not that the footage is getting any better, its just that the footage
is being intermediated so it can be edited better than 100mb long GOP.

I'm going to bump the Cineform settings to max and see what comes of that...

OK, update...

I put the HDlink conversion at "filmscan2" setting, created the AVI file, looked
at the properties and it reported 167mb...

Then brought in the 167mb footage onto the Premiere Pro timeline, exported using "filmscan2" "enable 444 encoding" and the properties reported 339mb... :-)

Looks good ...

Chad Haufschild · August 31st, 2009, 10:23 AM

Hello, everybody. Sorry I wasn't around this weekend. Excellent tests, Ray. Nicely done. You've just solved the question for all of us. HDLink WILL convert the higher bitrate files.

This all makes perfect sense because Cineform transcodes the original 100mbps mfx file into a wavlet-based avi. Adobe's limitation is bypassed completely. That's the beauty of Cineform's intermediate. It's no different than using it with AVCHD or HDV footage. You're actually change the codec, "inflating" it in a sense to get all you can out of the captured images.

I've been using Cineform for three years. I'm finishing up post on an indie feature and Cineform made our workflow with VFX and grading possible without having to spend extra time and money. I love this product and it is now a permanent part of my post workflow.

Troy Wuelfing · September 5th, 2009, 04:11 PM

Any word on when 4:2:2 support and or a bit rate higher than 35 will be functioning with Premiere?

We recently acquired 2 nanoflash units and would like to start using them.

Henry Olonga · March 22nd, 2010, 04:33 PM

Cineform used to convert the nanoflash files - but now it doesn't anymore it seems. How far are we to having full compatibility guys?

August 27th, 2009, 09:30 AM	#1
Marty Hudzik Trustee Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: Canton, Ohio Posts: 1,771	suuport for COnvergent Designs nano flash? I have a project in the near future that may require a signicant increase in color depth to obtain the desired results, and as such I am looking into the CD nanoflash device to acquire 4:2:2 from my Canon XLh1. As such, I would want to use one of the high bitrate modes, either 100mbs or 160mbps. However I use PRemiere PRo to edit and it supposedly only supports the 35mbs mode of the Nano Flash. Can I use Cinefrom as an intermediate codec to get around this limitation? Sorry if this has been covered. This came up fast I need to come up with a viable solution even faster. Marty

September 5th, 2009, 04:11 PM	#11
Troy Wuelfing Tourist Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Tucson, AZ Posts: 1	Premiere CS4 Any word on when 4:2:2 support and or a bit rate higher than 35 will be functioning with Premiere? We recently acquired 2 nanoflash units and would like to start using them.

March 22nd, 2010, 04:33 PM	#12
Henry Olonga Major Player Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: London Posts: 201	Cineform used to convert the nanoflash files - but now it doesn't anymore it seems. How far are we to having full compatibility guys? __________________ My vimeo page: http://vimeo.com/henryolonga/videos My website: www.henryolonga.net

August 28th, 2009, 11:46 AM	#2
Chad Haufschild Regular Crew Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Lincoln, NE Posts: 162	Hello, Marty. I'm researching the NanoFlash myself for exactly the same reason. I'm using a different camera, however, so my info may or may not help you in it's implementation. But as a Cineform user for the past three, I do have some input for you. The current version of ProspectHD can convert XDCAM HD mxf files to the Cineform intermediate. The NanoFlash can record to mfx so you're good to go there. Once it's converted to Cineform, PPro will edit it flawlessly. I don't know what your project is, but CD just implemented 24p pulldown from the 1080i60 stream of your camera. Good news for indie filmmakers. Hope that helps.

August 29th, 2009, 01:11 PM	#3
Marty Hudzik Trustee Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: Canton, Ohio Posts: 1,771	Chad, Thanks for the reply. I do understand that cineform handles .mxf files, but from what I understand from my research is that the nanoflash uses extended bitrates for their mxf files. 100mbps is the common one but can actually go to 160mbps for i-frame based compression. The Convergent website says Adobe PRemiere pro only supports up to the 35mbps version which is common for the Sony EX cameras. So I am trying to verify that the Cineform process will recognize these non-standard bitrates for mxf. I know on the Mac these files are detected as 50mbps since that is the limitation that Final Cut can see, but Convergent has just tricked FCP to think it is 50mbps but is really 100mbps or 160mbps. Anyone have any ideas on this for Cineform? Thanks

August 29th, 2009, 03:08 PM	#4
Craig Davidson Regular Crew Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: Solana Beach, CA Posts: 142	Are you looking at Premier Pro on the PC or Mac?

August 30th, 2009, 06:35 AM	#5
Marty Hudzik Trustee Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: Canton, Ohio Posts: 1,771	I am on a PC. If I was on a Mac I'd be using FCP instead of Premiere so this would not even be a question.

August 30th, 2009, 07:48 AM	#6
Alan Emery Major Player Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Janetville Ontario Canada Posts: 210	Hi Marty, I am in exactly the same position (PC PPRO CS4). I however, took the plunge and ordered a nanoFlash. According to Convergent Design, the mxf files are not fully compatible with Adobe except at 35 Mbps 4:2:0. They are in conversation with Adobe and also Main Concept. Both Adobe and Main Concept are working on getting the codec ready. Main Concept made a preliminary attempt, but it apparently doesn't work past about 2 1/2 minutes. According to CD, both Adobe and Main Concept are hoping to be ready in September; Adobe with a preset and main Concept with a plug-in. I am anxiously awaiting the news! Alan

August 30th, 2009, 08:02 AM	#7
Marty Hudzik Trustee Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: Canton, Ohio Posts: 1,771	I understand that the .mxf file from the Nano Flash are not directly compatible because of higher bitrates. However, if Cineform can read the .mxf files properly and convert to Cineform Intermediate properly, would this not work? I do know that Cineform can read .mxf files but I am not sure if it can read the high bitrate ones from Nano flash so that it can convert it. Can someone post a 100mb stream sample from the nano flash? I can post a website that will allow for large uploads if you send me a direct message. I'd really like to test since I already own CS3/Cs4 and Cineform Prospect HD. THanks.

August 30th, 2009, 09:11 AM	#8
Ray Bell Regular Crew Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 1,414	Marty... the files are on the convergent design website.. click on the Nano pic and down at the bottom are both MXF and MOV files... I'm testing them now.. Cineform does convert the files but I suspect the header on the original footage is going to cause Cineform an issue... I think Convergent does this to fake out the NLEs

August 30th, 2009, 11:22 AM	#9
Ray Bell Regular Crew Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 1,414	OK.. just finished my testing... I downloaded from the Convergent Design website the file "Motorcycle3 MXF" that is 1080i59.94 (100Mbit Long-Gop) I ran the file through Cineform HDLink, output "AVI" with quality "Film Scan" I then opened Premiere Pro CS3 with a timeline setup using Cineform preset of 1440x1080p 30 and brought in the footage. The footage has some audio but is just noise, so I ungrouped the audio and deleted the audio on the timeline... Note: The footage came into Premier and did not require any rendering (no red line on the timeline) Then I exported the timeline to AVI format and for the Cineform export settings I used " High HD optimized " and "enable 444 encoding" . I then used Premier Pro to show me the details of the files.... The original file from Convergent Design is 100mb 1080i59.94 (MXF-Long GOP) The HDLink converted file from Cineform shows as 167mb 1080 29.95 (AVI) The Premiere Pro file export shows as 250mb 1080 29.95 (AVI) I'm sure your noticing the upgrade from 100mb all the way to 250mb using the Cineform conversion... I also put the 250mb AVI on the timeline and worked in some color adjustments to see how the footage would hold up... the results are great... What is interesting is that on the Convergent Design Website it specs the Premier Pro NLE as 35mb 4:2:0 only, so utilizing Premier Pro by itself would be detrimental to the original 100mb footage, but using Cineform the footage is boosted to 250mb 4:4:4 using the settings I used... its not that the footage is getting any better, its just that the footage is being intermediated so it can be edited better than 100mb long GOP. I'm going to bump the Cineform settings to max and see what comes of that... OK, update... I put the HDlink conversion at "filmscan2" setting, created the AVI file, looked at the properties and it reported 167mb... Then brought in the 167mb footage onto the Premiere Pro timeline, exported using "filmscan2" "enable 444 encoding" and the properties reported 339mb... :-) Looks good ...

August 31st, 2009, 10:23 AM	#10
Chad Haufschild Regular Crew Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Lincoln, NE Posts: 162	Hello, everybody. Sorry I wasn't around this weekend. Excellent tests, Ray. Nicely done. You've just solved the question for all of us. HDLink WILL convert the higher bitrate files. This all makes perfect sense because Cineform transcodes the original 100mbps mfx file into a wavlet-based avi. Adobe's limitation is bypassed completely. That's the beauty of Cineform's intermediate. It's no different than using it with AVCHD or HDV footage. You're actually change the codec, "inflating" it in a sense to get all you can out of the captured images. I've been using Cineform for three years. I'm finishing up post on an indie feature and Cineform made our workflow with VFX and grading possible without having to spend extra time and money. I love this product and it is now a permanent part of my post workflow.