CineForm and 10-bit? at DVinfo.net

Ken Hodson · September 19th, 2004, 03:37 AM

Droped a clip into After Effects that I captured with AspectHD to try some Colour Finesse CC. I notice it gave me 8-bit 10-bit or some 16(something) as options. Can Cineform HD codec work in 10-bit? What is the colour space then? Does it switch from 4:2:0 to something higher?

David Newman · September 19th, 2004, 10:31 AM

Only the Prospect HD codec support 10 bit through AE's 16 bit mode. The Apsect HD codec will work in AE, but only at 8 bits per channel. The color space on both Aspect and Prospect HD codec is 4:2:2 not 4:2:0 (like HDV). When you convert from HDV into CineForm's CFHD codec we upconvert the chroma resolution.

Ken Hodson · September 19th, 2004, 11:36 AM

So if I wanted to do CC in 10-bit I would have to convert to a uncompressed codec. I was thinking of doing this at the very end of a project. Do you think it would be worth it from an aditional quality standpoint? Or would I have to go uncompressed throughout my entire AE workflow for there to be any difference?
Whats the opinion?

David Newman · September 19th, 2004, 11:54 AM

In many situations there is no benefit. HDV is an 8bit source, so if you convert it to 10bit you still only have 8bit precision. If you remain in 10bit for CC you will not introduce banding (which is good), the problem is you will eventually export in an 8bit format (most likely) and get your banding (contouring) then. So the 10bit intermediate didn't help. One work around is to dithering the 10bit intermediate back to 8bit to limit contouring -- however, dithering is bad for advanced compressors like WM9 and MPEG4-AVC (HD-DVD formats.) The only reason to upconvert to 10bit for CC would be if you can stay there (like for a DPX film out.)

Now if you have 10bit source, and have 10bit output options (HDSDI to HDCAM-SR or D5) the story is quite different. This is way we have a 10bit codec in Prospect HD. 10bit is simply overkill for HDV sources.

Ken Hodson · September 19th, 2004, 03:28 PM

Thanks for your help David. I am mostly concerned with cable broadcast output. I am not really certain what specs they expect on tape submissions as I have a little to learn in this regard :)

September 19th, 2004, 03:37 AM	#1
Ken Hodson Trustee Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: Vancouver BC Canada Posts: 1,315	Cineform and 10-bit? Droped a clip into After Effects that I captured with AspectHD to try some Colour Finesse CC. I notice it gave me 8-bit 10-bit or some 16(something) as options. Can Cineform HD codec work in 10-bit? What is the colour space then? Does it switch from 4:2:0 to something higher? __________________ Damnit Jim, I'm a film maker not a sysytems tech.

September 19th, 2004, 10:31 AM	#2
David Newman CTO, CineForm Inc. Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Cardiff-by-the-Sea, California Posts: 8,095	Only the Prospect HD codec support 10 bit through AE's 16 bit mode. The Apsect HD codec will work in AE, but only at 8 bits per channel. The color space on both Aspect and Prospect HD codec is 4:2:2 not 4:2:0 (like HDV). When you convert from HDV into CineForm's CFHD codec we upconvert the chroma resolution. __________________ David Newman -- web: www.gopro.com blog: cineform.blogspot.com -- twitter: twitter.com/David_Newman

September 19th, 2004, 11:36 AM	#3
Ken Hodson Trustee Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: Vancouver BC Canada Posts: 1,315	So if I wanted to do CC in 10-bit I would have to convert to a uncompressed codec. I was thinking of doing this at the very end of a project. Do you think it would be worth it from an aditional quality standpoint? Or would I have to go uncompressed throughout my entire AE workflow for there to be any difference? Whats the opinion? __________________ Damnit Jim, I'm a film maker not a sysytems tech.

September 19th, 2004, 11:54 AM	#4
David Newman CTO, CineForm Inc. Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Cardiff-by-the-Sea, California Posts: 8,095	In many situations there is no benefit. HDV is an 8bit source, so if you convert it to 10bit you still only have 8bit precision. If you remain in 10bit for CC you will not introduce banding (which is good), the problem is you will eventually export in an 8bit format (most likely) and get your banding (contouring) then. So the 10bit intermediate didn't help. One work around is to dithering the 10bit intermediate back to 8bit to limit contouring -- however, dithering is bad for advanced compressors like WM9 and MPEG4-AVC (HD-DVD formats.) The only reason to upconvert to 10bit for CC would be if you can stay there (like for a DPX film out.) Now if you have 10bit source, and have 10bit output options (HDSDI to HDCAM-SR or D5) the story is quite different. This is way we have a 10bit codec in Prospect HD. 10bit is simply overkill for HDV sources. __________________ David Newman -- web: www.gopro.com blog: cineform.blogspot.com -- twitter: twitter.com/David_Newman

September 19th, 2004, 03:28 PM	#5
Ken Hodson Trustee Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: Vancouver BC Canada Posts: 1,315	Thanks for your help David. I am mostly concerned with cable broadcast output. I am not really certain what specs they expect on tape submissions as I have a little to learn in this regard :) __________________ Damnit Jim, I'm a film maker not a sysytems tech.