What happens to Neo HD v3 users now ? at DVinfo.net

Anmol Mishra · July 17th, 2009, 11:20 PM

I bought NeoHD 3 last year - used it for about a month. Then the production was put on hold - restarted recently.
Now I find out that updates to NeoHD 3 have stopped and we are required to pay 129 to update to NeoHD 4.
I had bought NeoHD as the updates were free. After all, its a codec. I have to say that I feel ripped off now.

Now, it does not appear that new updates will be released as regularly for NeoHD 3 as for 4..
If at all!

I will be reviewing other alternatives including Jpeg2K and Sheer codec.

David Newman · July 18th, 2009, 08:48 AM

You should only upgrade if you need the new features -- for which there are plently not even codec related. Your v3 product still has an excellent codec, up to 10X faster than JPEG2000 and significantly smaller output size than Sheer. You logic to spend more money on different codecs to avoid spending more on enhanced features is odd. The main addition to v4 is First Light, is a color processing image development package, happen to work with the codec, but it not something that was an incremental update. I hope you reconsider, either stay with what you have, or look at what v4 offers.

P.S. The latest decoders are always free (download Neo Player for CS4 decoders and newer DirectShow components), and the encoder has hardly changed and hasn't in years.

Anmol Mishra · July 18th, 2009, 09:05 AM

My issue is that support is going to be stopped for v3. No more releases. If I tie myself to a Cineform workflow, I am forced to pay up every time this happens.
If I upgrade and there is a v5, what then ?
The user is forced on an upgrade path simply to get bug fixes.

If I am wrong please correct me, but my impression is that v3 is not going to be supported for new releases anymore. For a codec, if there are no more releases, it makes it unusable pretty soon.

David Newman · July 18th, 2009, 09:38 AM

Support continues, and fortunately there are no known bugs in the Neo HD v3 codec. Find significant encoder issue and we would do our best patch it.

Heath Vinyard · July 18th, 2009, 12:41 PM

Unfortunately this happens with all software, not just cineform. Microsoft does it with their OS. Apple does it with their OS. Adobe does it with their products. It's the nature of the business and something we have to consider when buying a product that it will eventually be out of date. Heck, computers themselves go out of date after a while. I've built 3 new computers in the last 2 years alone to keep up with the demands of what I need to do. It happens outside of computers/software too. Cars, appliances, everything goes out of date at some point unfortunately.

Jack Walker · July 18th, 2009, 03:06 PM

If I understand, there is nothing wrong with ver. 3, so there is no reason not to use it just as planned a year ago.

What NLE are you using? Do you need to upgrade to ver. 4 because ver. 3 won't work with your new NLE?

Ver. 4 with First Light is a significant addition to the software, and the price of the upgrade is worth the brand new components in the package.

However, unless there is something I don't undersand, ver. 3 will do just as good a job today as it did a year ago.

(However, I do think Canon should exchange my XH-A1 for the XH-A1s, since this the newer version is nothing more than a fix on the original version... unlike Cineform ver. 4 which has a whole new component with First Light.)

Anmol Mishra · July 18th, 2009, 06:38 PM

I did think of the OS similarity. However, to their credit Microsoft announces a new OS first. Then they continue to issue fixes for at least a year on the old one.

However this is a codec. I know the 5D Mark II is supported - but will support for future cameras be released under "support" ?

Thats why I said, for a codec, lack of new releases means an end. And thats why I am reevaluating Cineform in my workflow.

Its the best at the moment. But this incident has reminded me not to get tied down to it.

Jack Walker · July 18th, 2009, 07:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Anmol Mishra

I did think of the OS similarity. However, to their credit Microsoft announces a new OS first. Then they continue to issue fixes for at least a year on the old one.

The trouble with comparing Microsoft's Windows to Cineform is that Windows gets sold broken and never really does get fixed, so fix after fix after fix is necessary.

With Cineform, if it isn't broken and works as it is supposed to, it's not really possible to put out a lot of fixes. I suppose there would be some people to be made happy if Cineform put out pretend fixes, so these people would think they were getting something for free. But then, if these people thought about it they would realize they had bought a broken product in the first place -- since it keeps having to be fixed -- and this might make them mad and make them spend the money to move over to an inferior product.

Actually, it's Adobe that should reform it's behavior. First they bundle all there products into a cheap $2000 package, then when they upgrade, and even if you only want the upgrade for one of the bundled programs, you still kind of have to spend the $500 to $800 for the whole package upgrade.

But Microsoft's new system with Windows 7 is the way to go! They sell the upgrade, give a deadline by which it has to be bought for the discounted price (which just past), and the product is still somewhere beyond the horizon. With this system you don't just get a fix 6 months after you pay, you get the whole program! Bugs and All! And you haven't been burdened with trying to get it to work with old drivers, because it has been vaporware for the first six months you owned it.

David Taylor · July 18th, 2009, 10:11 PM

Anmol, part of the problem with the discussion is that you keep calling CineForm "a codec". If our codec is all you use from Neo HD then there is no need whatsoever for you to upgrade, and you're in excellent shape. The codec itself has not really changed. A little, but not worth upgrading for.

But for other customers they are interested in our workflow that surrounds our compression format such as HD Link which provides myriad format conversions, telecine removal, speed change, etc. Also First Light which offers our renderless non-destructive color workflow. If those are not useful for your workflow then there is no need to upgrade and you're in great shape with v3.

Anmol Mishra · July 19th, 2009, 01:59 AM

My usage is for capture and editing. However, the usage is as a simple intermediate capture and editing codec that is almost real time, no more.

However, formats change often. And I do use HDLink - my concern is for the new wave of DSLR videos.

Soon, we will have a usable DSLR for video, and I did not expect that I would have a problem transcoding with HDLink to Cineform.

Thats basically it.. Also, the NLE also gets upgraded, I didn't expect to pay for a NLE upgrade AND a codec upgrade. The codec should essentially work..

Will V3 work in CS5 ?
Will HDLink in v3 work to transcode 5d Mark III footage ?

I didn't think of these issues. ATM I am a single person so the revenue is not substantial enough for Cineform to bother. However, if an alternative comes across I will definitely check it out.

Wish DNxHD was supported by Blackmagic, an open codec and lossless, with a reasonable amount of compression (though about 60% higher file size than Cineform).

Other than that, I wish Cineform well, excellent support and excellent product.

Kevin Duffey · July 19th, 2009, 11:05 PM

Anmol,

Like others, I think you really need to rethink what you are saying. They have a newer version with support of newer hardware and better software to boot. If you're using Adobe Premiere, Vegas, FC, etc.. are you going to complain when Adobe, Sony and Apple all say that they will no longer add new codec support to CS3? If you want the new RED Raw and Cineform support in the timeline, you need to upgrade to CS4? They'll continue to fix bugs, for sure, but newer features and newer support will only go into the newer product. It's part of what is called product lifecycle. Keep in mind, CineForm is a small company with limited resources, they can't be tasked with keeping older products working just like their new ones. And to be fair, they also need to stay in business in the first place to keep supporting older products. The way you have voiced it, they would be out of business in no time and you can kiss support of all products goodbye then.

I don't think it's fair for a company to do a minor upgrade or patch, and sell it for upgrade or even as a new version. Microsoft is somewhat notorious for that. I feel that I've been beta testing their OS since I started with computers, although they have gotten many things worked out. To be honest.. that really is what software is..it's an never ending test cycle. Adobe has lots of bugs in CS4.. and they'll fix them and provide updates, usually for free. Pretty much all software works this way, even free software or open source software will "break" backwards compatibility sometimes with a new version release. They'll then do minimal work on older versions and put most resources on the newer version. It's how software progresses and gets better.

Like everyone said, keep what you have, it's already an excellent codec. The upgrade is well worth the price if you need it, but otherwise, stay with what you got.

July 17th, 2009, 11:20 PM	#1
Anmol Mishra Major Player Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Sydney Australia Posts: 401	What happens to Neo HD v3 users now ? I bought NeoHD 3 last year - used it for about a month. Then the production was put on hold - restarted recently. Now I find out that updates to NeoHD 3 have stopped and we are required to pay 129 to update to NeoHD 4. I had bought NeoHD as the updates were free. After all, its a codec. I have to say that I feel ripped off now. Now, it does not appear that new updates will be released as regularly for NeoHD 3 as for 4.. If at all! I will be reviewing other alternatives including Jpeg2K and Sheer codec.

July 18th, 2009, 08:48 AM	#2
David Newman CTO, CineForm Inc. Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Cardiff-by-the-Sea, California Posts: 8,095	You should only upgrade if you need the new features -- for which there are plently not even codec related. Your v3 product still has an excellent codec, up to 10X faster than JPEG2000 and significantly smaller output size than Sheer. You logic to spend more money on different codecs to avoid spending more on enhanced features is odd. The main addition to v4 is First Light, is a color processing image development package, happen to work with the codec, but it not something that was an incremental update. I hope you reconsider, either stay with what you have, or look at what v4 offers. P.S. The latest decoders are always free (download Neo Player for CS4 decoders and newer DirectShow components), and the encoder has hardly changed and hasn't in years. __________________ David Newman -- web: www.gopro.com blog: cineform.blogspot.com -- twitter: twitter.com/David_Newman

July 18th, 2009, 09:38 AM	#4
David Newman CTO, CineForm Inc. Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Cardiff-by-the-Sea, California Posts: 8,095	Support continues, and fortunately there are no known bugs in the Neo HD v3 codec. Find significant encoder issue and we would do our best patch it. __________________ David Newman -- web: www.gopro.com blog: cineform.blogspot.com -- twitter: twitter.com/David_Newman

July 18th, 2009, 12:41 PM	#5
Heath Vinyard Major Player Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Orange County Posts: 296	Unfortunately this happens with all software, not just cineform. Microsoft does it with their OS. Apple does it with their OS. Adobe does it with their products. It's the nature of the business and something we have to consider when buying a product that it will eventually be out of date. Heck, computers themselves go out of date after a while. I've built 3 new computers in the last 2 years alone to keep up with the demands of what I need to do. It happens outside of computers/software too. Cars, appliances, everything goes out of date at some point unfortunately. __________________ Heath Vinyard www.ghostlandmedia.com

July 18th, 2009, 09:05 AM	#3
Anmol Mishra Major Player Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Sydney Australia Posts: 401	My issue is that support is going to be stopped for v3. No more releases. If I tie myself to a Cineform workflow, I am forced to pay up every time this happens. If I upgrade and there is a v5, what then ? The user is forced on an upgrade path simply to get bug fixes. If I am wrong please correct me, but my impression is that v3 is not going to be supported for new releases anymore. For a codec, if there are no more releases, it makes it unusable pretty soon.

July 18th, 2009, 03:06 PM	#6
Jack Walker Trustee Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Burbank Posts: 1,811	If I understand, there is nothing wrong with ver. 3, so there is no reason not to use it just as planned a year ago. What NLE are you using? Do you need to upgrade to ver. 4 because ver. 3 won't work with your new NLE? Ver. 4 with First Light is a significant addition to the software, and the price of the upgrade is worth the brand new components in the package. However, unless there is something I don't undersand, ver. 3 will do just as good a job today as it did a year ago. (However, I do think Canon should exchange my XH-A1 for the XH-A1s, since this the newer version is nothing more than a fix on the original version... unlike Cineform ver. 4 which has a whole new component with First Light.)

July 18th, 2009, 06:38 PM	#7
Anmol Mishra Major Player Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Sydney Australia Posts: 401	I did think of the OS similarity. However, to their credit Microsoft announces a new OS first. Then they continue to issue fixes for at least a year on the old one. However this is a codec. I know the 5D Mark II is supported - but will support for future cameras be released under "support" ? Thats why I said, for a codec, lack of new releases means an end. And thats why I am reevaluating Cineform in my workflow. Its the best at the moment. But this incident has reminded me not to get tied down to it.

July 18th, 2009, 10:11 PM	#9
David Taylor Major Player Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Solana Beach, CA Posts: 853	Anmol, part of the problem with the discussion is that you keep calling CineForm "a codec". If our codec is all you use from Neo HD then there is no need whatsoever for you to upgrade, and you're in excellent shape. The codec itself has not really changed. A little, but not worth upgrading for. But for other customers they are interested in our workflow that surrounds our compression format such as HD Link which provides myriad format conversions, telecine removal, speed change, etc. Also First Light which offers our renderless non-destructive color workflow. If those are not useful for your workflow then there is no need to upgrade and you're in great shape with v3.

July 19th, 2009, 01:59 AM	#10
Anmol Mishra Major Player Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Sydney Australia Posts: 401	My usage is for capture and editing. However, the usage is as a simple intermediate capture and editing codec that is almost real time, no more. However, formats change often. And I do use HDLink - my concern is for the new wave of DSLR videos. Soon, we will have a usable DSLR for video, and I did not expect that I would have a problem transcoding with HDLink to Cineform. Thats basically it.. Also, the NLE also gets upgraded, I didn't expect to pay for a NLE upgrade AND a codec upgrade. The codec should essentially work.. Will V3 work in CS5 ? Will HDLink in v3 work to transcode 5d Mark III footage ? I didn't think of these issues. ATM I am a single person so the revenue is not substantial enough for Cineform to bother. However, if an alternative comes across I will definitely check it out. Wish DNxHD was supported by Blackmagic, an open codec and lossless, with a reasonable amount of compression (though about 60% higher file size than Cineform). Other than that, I wish Cineform well, excellent support and excellent product.

July 19th, 2009, 11:05 PM	#11
Kevin Duffey Major Player Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: California Posts: 206	Anmol, Like others, I think you really need to rethink what you are saying. They have a newer version with support of newer hardware and better software to boot. If you're using Adobe Premiere, Vegas, FC, etc.. are you going to complain when Adobe, Sony and Apple all say that they will no longer add new codec support to CS3? If you want the new RED Raw and Cineform support in the timeline, you need to upgrade to CS4? They'll continue to fix bugs, for sure, but newer features and newer support will only go into the newer product. It's part of what is called product lifecycle. Keep in mind, CineForm is a small company with limited resources, they can't be tasked with keeping older products working just like their new ones. And to be fair, they also need to stay in business in the first place to keep supporting older products. The way you have voiced it, they would be out of business in no time and you can kiss support of all products goodbye then. I don't think it's fair for a company to do a minor upgrade or patch, and sell it for upgrade or even as a new version. Microsoft is somewhat notorious for that. I feel that I've been beta testing their OS since I started with computers, although they have gotten many things worked out. To be honest.. that really is what software is..it's an never ending test cycle. Adobe has lots of bugs in CS4.. and they'll fix them and provide updates, usually for free. Pretty much all software works this way, even free software or open source software will "break" backwards compatibility sometimes with a new version release. They'll then do minimal work on older versions and put most resources on the newer version. It's how software progresses and gets better. Like everyone said, keep what you have, it's already an excellent codec. The upgrade is well worth the price if you need it, but otherwise, stay with what you got.