best HD to SD footage conversion

Martin Rahn · May 13th, 2009, 01:57 PM

I tried another method for converting HD to SD and to my amateur eye it looks good. I captured 1080i HD clips from my Sony HC1 camera using Ppro 3 and Prospect 3 HD (HDLink).

After all edits were in place I exported a CFHD Avi and then authored a SD DVD using that avi and a SD 720x480 preset with TMPGEnc Authoring Works 4.0xx. The program costs $99, but it seems to be full featured and I found it easy to use. This may sound like a commercial but I have nothing to do with TMPGEnc!

I played the DVD on at least 2 DVD players without issue. Based upon this experience, I am going to try authoring a BluRay disc from both a CFHD avi and AVCHD clips and hope for the best.

Marty

Bruce Gruber · May 13th, 2009, 02:21 PM

ok I have a question why wold't you use encore if you have pp? Just curious?

Martin Rahn · May 13th, 2009, 02:56 PM

I have just not been comfortable with Encore. The learning curve is more than I care to tackle.

I look at Encore as a no cost option since it is included with PPro, but still prefer TMPGEnc which has virtually no learning curve and for me at least, good results.

Bruce Gruber · May 13th, 2009, 04:48 PM

Ok I see! Did you ever try lynda.com on line training? it will get you up to speed real fast and I think they even give you a 7 day trial. I love it for all it has to offer.

Robert Bobson · May 14th, 2009, 08:05 AM

Thanks for the link, John.

I'm trying to go from HD widescreen to SD full screen 4:3.

These conversions with HD link appear to be taking HD 16:9 format and shrinking to SD 16:9 format, but with the SD widescreen info compressed into 720x480, and then expanded using 1.333 PAR.

On the other hand, my original footage is also 1.333 PAR (1440x1080) - so I'm starting with 1920x1080 compressed into 1440x1080!? Maybe it's a wash???

Or would it be better to 'expand' the raw horixontal 1440 to 1920 in a 1440x1080 comp in AE (4:3)....and then export as a 720x480 non-widescreen cineform avi?

will AE create a good a cineform avi as HD link? is it the same codec being used?

If not, maybe I could just export the 4:3 1440x1080 sq pixel comp from AE as an avi file, then use HD link to downsize to an SD 4:3 file???

AAAhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh!

Bill Ravens · May 14th, 2009, 08:34 AM

I just completed a short with mixed footage, SD and HD at 720P(not my choice, director's choice). I intentionally shot 720p in order to better match the final output format. I tried several different approaches and picked the one that gave me the sharpest looking result. For me, the best method was to transcode all the footage, SD and HD, up front with NeoHD, into SD formatted Cineform DI. After injesting all the transcoded footage into Avid, I had to crop the SD footage to match the widescreen format of the HD footage. This method gave pretty good results considering that working with the Cineform DI, I was working in 10-bit. No upscaling was performed, to avoid making the SD footage even softer than it started. Final output was to DVD, everything remained astonishingly sharp. Even the SD looked OK against the HD.

Martin Rahn · May 14th, 2009, 02:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bruce Gruber

Ok I see! Did you ever try lynda.com on line training? it will get you up to speed real fast and I think they even give you a 7 day trial. I love it for all it has to offer.

Bruce:

Thanks for the suggestion. I used my free time on something else.

Robert Bobson · May 15th, 2009, 11:06 AM

I've been doing tests for the last few days.

I started with DVC PRO HD footage (1440x1080 1.333 par) and XD CAM EX footage (1280x1080 1.5 par) and down sized them to SD widescreen.

First I tried HD link to downsize them to the cineform intermedairy

Then I tried After Effects - and 'outputted' to standard AVI, CF AVI or BlackMagic AVI.

I really can't see any difference in quality between any of these methods. they all look good.

does anyone know if the cineform will maintain quality better as it passes thru PPro CS4 with effects and color-correction added?

any other reasons to go with one method over another?

Bruce Gruber · May 15th, 2009, 11:26 AM

hi Robert did take them all the way to Dvd? And view them on 40 or50 inch LCD tv. There is where you will see the difference! A big difference! Adobes compression is really bad goi g to SD DVD!

Robert Bobson · May 15th, 2009, 12:15 PM

no - didn't end up on DVD. we're only going to video tape. I compared by looking at a 14" production monitor.

david newman sez best quality staying in HD thru edit, then downsize. but not sure my computer will handle editing in HD with animation and effects, etc.

So I don't know what to do. and I need to decide fast! :(

John Rich · May 15th, 2009, 02:23 PM

I've used a variation of Bob Young's and David's method for editing AVCHD footage to wide screen DVD (PAR 1.2).

After converting to Cineform .avi Progressive with HDLink (1920x1080) PAR 1.0, I've imported the footage into a Cineform 1920x1080 project, edited and then output using Export-Movie with as Cineform.avi Progressive, 720x480 (widescreen or PAR 1.2).
I then import this into an Encore project and have Encore encode as MPEG2 for the DVD.
This I think, looks good on a 65 inch TV playing with PS3.

I'm using PP3 and an AMD quad core (XP Pro, SP3). ProspectHD.

The only problem comes up when I try to incorporate some graphics using AE. Here, I used a 1920x1080 comp size and exported either as Quicktime, or Cineform. Neither of these would play on the above timeline unless I rendered them first (Hit enter and redline over these converted to green), which took quite a while. (interestingly, the cineform codec's default is with alpha channel ie RGB+).

I don't know whether the AE problem is related to the computer, but I would think that a quad core could handle this. Anybody else having this problem with AE playing on the ProspectHD timeline?

John Rich

Robert Bobson · May 16th, 2009, 08:05 AM

after doing tests and comparing, I've decided down rez using AE. I'll import my 1440x1080 1.333par footage into a 1440x1080 1.333par comp in AE, then export to SD widescreen avi.

To my eye this conversion method looks as good as any...

Robert Bobson · May 18th, 2009, 10:15 AM

I've decided to edit the original footage and then downconvert. Hopefully PPro CS4
won't bog down...

Trying to convert my original video files (.mxf files from a P2 card) is way too time consuming. each mxf file is 'buried' at the end of a cascade of folders, and each clip is labled with a random alphanumeric code, so each interview is broken up into multiple clips with unrelated names!

I just keep telling myself, "2 months from now it will all be done"...

May 13th, 2009, 01:57 PM	#16
Martin Rahn Regular Crew Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: Jackson New Jersey Posts: 41	Another Method For HD-> SD Conversion I tried another method for converting HD to SD and to my amateur eye it looks good. I captured 1080i HD clips from my Sony HC1 camera using Ppro 3 and Prospect 3 HD (HDLink). After all edits were in place I exported a CFHD Avi and then authored a SD DVD using that avi and a SD 720x480 preset with TMPGEnc Authoring Works 4.0xx. The program costs $99, but it seems to be full featured and I found it easy to use. This may sound like a commercial but I have nothing to do with TMPGEnc! I played the DVD on at least 2 DVD players without issue. Based upon this experience, I am going to try authoring a BluRay disc from both a CFHD avi and AVCHD clips and hope for the best. Marty

May 13th, 2009, 02:56 PM	#18
Martin Rahn Regular Crew Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: Jackson New Jersey Posts: 41	TMPGEnc v Encore I have just not been comfortable with Encore. The learning curve is more than I care to tackle. I look at Encore as a no cost option since it is included with PPro, but still prefer TMPGEnc which has virtually no learning curve and for me at least, good results.

May 15th, 2009, 11:06 AM	#23
Robert Bobson Major Player Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Bay City, Michigan Posts: 585	test results I've been doing tests for the last few days. I started with DVC PRO HD footage (1440x1080 1.333 par) and XD CAM EX footage (1280x1080 1.5 par) and down sized them to SD widescreen. First I tried HD link to downsize them to the cineform intermedairy Then I tried After Effects - and 'outputted' to standard AVI, CF AVI or BlackMagic AVI. I really can't see any difference in quality between any of these methods. they all look good. does anyone know if the cineform will maintain quality better as it passes thru PPro CS4 with effects and color-correction added? any other reasons to go with one method over another?

May 13th, 2009, 02:21 PM	#17
Bruce Gruber Major Player Join Date: Apr 2009 Location: Lebanon, PA Posts: 221	ok I have a question why wold't you use encore if you have pp? Just curious?

May 13th, 2009, 04:48 PM	#19
Bruce Gruber Major Player Join Date: Apr 2009 Location: Lebanon, PA Posts: 221	Ok I see! Did you ever try lynda.com on line training? it will get you up to speed real fast and I think they even give you a 7 day trial. I love it for all it has to offer.

May 14th, 2009, 08:05 AM	#20
Robert Bobson Major Player Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Bay City, Michigan Posts: 585	Thanks for the link, John. I'm trying to go from HD widescreen to SD full screen 4:3. These conversions with HD link appear to be taking HD 16:9 format and shrinking to SD 16:9 format, but with the SD widescreen info compressed into 720x480, and then expanded using 1.333 PAR. On the other hand, my original footage is also 1.333 PAR (1440x1080) - so I'm starting with 1920x1080 compressed into 1440x1080!? Maybe it's a wash??? Or would it be better to 'expand' the raw horixontal 1440 to 1920 in a 1440x1080 comp in AE (4:3)....and then export as a 720x480 non-widescreen cineform avi? will AE create a good a cineform avi as HD link? is it the same codec being used? If not, maybe I could just export the 4:3 1440x1080 sq pixel comp from AE as an avi file, then use HD link to downsize to an SD 4:3 file??? AAAhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh!

May 14th, 2009, 08:34 AM	#21
Bill Ravens Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: santa fe, nm Posts: 3,264 Images: 10	I just completed a short with mixed footage, SD and HD at 720P(not my choice, director's choice). I intentionally shot 720p in order to better match the final output format. I tried several different approaches and picked the one that gave me the sharpest looking result. For me, the best method was to transcode all the footage, SD and HD, up front with NeoHD, into SD formatted Cineform DI. After injesting all the transcoded footage into Avid, I had to crop the SD footage to match the widescreen format of the HD footage. This method gave pretty good results considering that working with the Cineform DI, I was working in 10-bit. No upscaling was performed, to avoid making the SD footage even softer than it started. Final output was to DVD, everything remained astonishingly sharp. Even the SD looked OK against the HD.

May 15th, 2009, 11:26 AM	#24
Bruce Gruber Major Player Join Date: Apr 2009 Location: Lebanon, PA Posts: 221	hi Robert did take them all the way to Dvd? And view them on 40 or50 inch LCD tv. There is where you will see the difference! A big difference! Adobes compression is really bad goi g to SD DVD!

May 15th, 2009, 12:15 PM	#25
Robert Bobson Major Player Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Bay City, Michigan Posts: 585	no - didn't end up on DVD. we're only going to video tape. I compared by looking at a 14" production monitor. david newman sez best quality staying in HD thru edit, then downsize. but not sure my computer will handle editing in HD with animation and effects, etc. So I don't know what to do. and I need to decide fast! :(

May 15th, 2009, 02:23 PM	#26
John Rich Regular Crew Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Dayton, Ohio Posts: 80	I've used a variation of Bob Young's and David's method for editing AVCHD footage to wide screen DVD (PAR 1.2). After converting to Cineform .avi Progressive with HDLink (1920x1080) PAR 1.0, I've imported the footage into a Cineform 1920x1080 project, edited and then output using Export-Movie with as Cineform.avi Progressive, 720x480 (widescreen or PAR 1.2). I then import this into an Encore project and have Encore encode as MPEG2 for the DVD. This I think, looks good on a 65 inch TV playing with PS3. I'm using PP3 and an AMD quad core (XP Pro, SP3). ProspectHD. The only problem comes up when I try to incorporate some graphics using AE. Here, I used a 1920x1080 comp size and exported either as Quicktime, or Cineform. Neither of these would play on the above timeline unless I rendered them first (Hit enter and redline over these converted to green), which took quite a while. (interestingly, the cineform codec's default is with alpha channel ie RGB+). I don't know whether the AE problem is related to the computer, but I would think that a quad core could handle this. Anybody else having this problem with AE playing on the ProspectHD timeline? John Rich

May 16th, 2009, 08:05 AM	#27
Robert Bobson Major Player Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Bay City, Michigan Posts: 585	after doing tests and comparing, I've decided down rez using AE. I'll import my 1440x1080 1.333par footage into a 1440x1080 1.333par comp in AE, then export to SD widescreen avi. To my eye this conversion method looks as good as any...

May 18th, 2009, 10:15 AM	#28
Robert Bobson Major Player Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Bay City, Michigan Posts: 585	I've decided to edit the original footage and then downconvert. Hopefully PPro CS4 won't bog down... Trying to convert my original video files (.mxf files from a P2 card) is way too time consuming. each mxf file is 'buried' at the end of a cascade of folders, and each clip is labled with a random alphanumeric code, so each interview is broken up into multiple clips with unrelated names! I just keep telling myself, "2 months from now it will all be done"...