Vegas 9 Compatibility at DVinfo.net

James Campbell · April 27th, 2009, 07:47 PM

Given that Vegas 9 is coming out in early May, can we get a quick summary of what Cineform products will be immediately compatible with that upgrade? My specific problem may be that I'm still using Neo HDV... will this now be the time that Neo HDV users will need to choose either NeoScene or NeoHD? If we DO upgrade to NeoHD now (v3), will we fit within the timeframe that we'll get a free v4 upgrade when it comes out shortly?

David Taylor · April 28th, 2009, 10:42 PM

We have a long-standing good relationship with the Vegas team and we hope to have support in the future. Currently the Vegas AVI api will not read 32-bit components under 64-bit. The proper solution is a 64-bit version of our SDK that is integrated into Vegas. We talked with the Sony team about strategies at NAB, but it is not there yet.

Mark Duckworth · April 29th, 2009, 07:30 AM

So what your saying is that all Cineform products will not work with Vegas 9 (64bit Version)? I guess I should have expected that given Cineform doesn't work with Vegas 8.1. Disappointing.

Gary Brun · April 29th, 2009, 08:20 AM

But what he did say...was its coming!!

David Taylor · April 29th, 2009, 11:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mark Duckworth

So what your saying is that all Cineform products will not work with Vegas 9 (64bit Version)? I guess I should have expected that given Cineform doesn't work with Vegas 8.1. Disappointing.

Agreed. It's disappointing when Vegas moved to 64 bit that they didn't ensure compatibility with the the larger 32-bit world. So it takes time to move the existing world to 64 bit.

Joe Carney · April 29th, 2009, 01:29 PM

You get both versions when 9 ships.

Jay Bloomfield · April 30th, 2009, 07:04 AM

The sad thing is that Vegas 8.1 (64 bit) will read and write CFHD MOV files properly. The problem is that the Vegas 8.1 AVI plug-in only works with 64 bit codecs, while the remaining plug-ins work fine with 32 bit codecs. It seems like SCS could have made a simple change with Vegas 9.0 64 bit to allow access to 32 bit codecs and the AVI wrapper.

David Newman · April 30th, 2009, 03:20 PM

Just for the hell of it, I tried a 64-bit build of the Video for Window codec, expecting that it would requires a many many hours/days of fixes, and the damn thing just worked. I guess in the near future we will be support 64-bit Vegas after all (with the delay of an API change -- which we still want to get done.)

P.S. I've only tested this with the 64-bit VirtualDub, but I expect Vegas 8.1 & 9 64-bit will work fine.

Jay Bloomfield · April 30th, 2009, 03:42 PM

Hey, you never know until you try.

Michael Gyori · May 11th, 2009, 03:43 PM

David Newman.... I love Cineform and don't want to be an annoying whiner on these forums, but it really hurts to read your post.

So... after 8 months of Vegas 8.1 NOT working with Cineform.... just for the hell of it, you compiled a 64 bit version of the Cineform VfW codec and it worked?!?! Just for the hell of it? Not because some of your customers have been desperately requesting it so they can take advantage of their 64 bit systems?

Please, please, please... Make a working 64 bit version of your Cineform codec a priority! Because no matter what you want me to believe, your post shows that it has not been important to anyone at Cineform at all.

Jay Bloomfield · May 11th, 2009, 04:46 PM

I think you are underestimating what is required to recompile code from 32 bit to 64 bit. Usually, it doesn't work, just by changing the target OS type. More often than not, it requires considerable rewriting and debugging and sometimes it's just better to ditch the 32 bit code and start from scratch. You should keep in mind also that the vast majority of PC-based A/V software uses the DirectShow interface to access filters and codecs. Sony Vegas is one of the few common programs left (VirtualDub is the other and that's freeware) that still uses the old Video for Windows interface.

Then you have to consider both that most people are still using the 32 bit version of Vegas and that CFHD MOV files work okay in the 64 bit version of Vegas. Lastly, it is really the fault of SCS that 64 bit Vegas won't use 32 bit codecs embedded in an AVI wrapper. They could have updated the AVI plugins that import and render, but they chose to only allow 64 bit codecs to be used with the AVI wrapper. Vegas 64 bit comes with a variety of built-in 32 bit codecs (h.264, MPEG2, etc.) and they all work fine.

All that taken into account, I think it's remarkable that Cineform was been responsive enough to even try to make a 64 bit VFW codec. That said, it's worth keep up the pressure, because if no one complains, then it appears there is no demand for the product.

James Campbell · May 11th, 2009, 08:51 PM

David,
Just to follow up with your comment in a different post (... "Vegas broke compatibility with our 32-bit modes"), does this mean that with Vegas 9 32-bit, there will be problems currently? Because several of us are seeing this with Neo HDV files previewing within V9 (Sony Creative Software - Forums - Vegas Pro - Video Messages).

Is our only answer to use Vegas 8 if we have Cineform files until the compatibility with 32-bit is repaired? I'm working on a 2 hour documentary that I'd love to be able to work on in Vegas 9 32-bit, because I'm having problems rendering in Vegas 8 due to the large amount of footage/photos/etc. I have about 70 hours of Cineform HDV files that it seems there's no way I can currently use them in Vegas 9. Unless Vegas 9 can work with Cineform, I'm stuck finishing this documentary in Vegas 8.

David Taylor · May 11th, 2009, 10:40 PM

James, as Jay properly points out CineForm MOV files seem to work in Vegas 9. I'd take a handful of your AVI files and rewrap them to MOV using HD Link. Then I'd test them in Vegas 9 to verify that they work for you. If they do you could consider rewrapping all of your material to MOV. Yes that's a pain in the a**, but rewrapping is quite fast - almost as fast as a file copy.

We haven't done any extensive testing in Vegas 9 yet (with MOV) because most Windows users are doing AVI work, and we know AVI doesn't work right now.

We had a good meeting with the Sony people at NAB and there is mutual desire to get this finished. But we need to get through the PPro importer problems first....

James Campbell · May 12th, 2009, 04:30 AM

David,
I very much appreciate your information here. I referenced it in a post on the Vegas forum here: Sony Creative Software - Forums - Vegas Pro - Video Messages, and recommended that all Vegas users submit a ticket to request that Sony do all they can on their part to work on this compatibility. I know there are a whole lot of Vegas users that have Cineform in their workflow. I can't imagine why they didn't address this prior to release. As I stated in my Vegas post, I believe this is poor form on Sony's part to not make this known. Unless they're indicating by this that they're backing away from the support for Cineform intermediates, despite what they've told you at NAB. It'll be interesting how this plays out. These are the issues that make strong supporters back off of a piece of software... not a good idea in these days of many options.

John Cline · May 12th, 2009, 10:47 AM

I use Cineform files extensively for archiving, they are a great balance between image quality and file size. I installed Vegas v9 32-bit yesterday and rendering to the Neo Scene Cineform codec is no longer an option. Cineform support in Vegas is absolutely critical to my workflow. This is a deal breaker for me and Vegas v9.

All my other 32-bit VFW codecs (Lagarith, HuffYUV, Main Concept DV25 & DV50 etc.) seem to work. Do I need to reinstall Neo Scene or is there some fundamental incompatibility between the new Vegas v9 32-bit version and the VFW Neo Scene codec?

April 27th, 2009, 07:47 PM	#1
James Campbell Regular Crew Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Cheshire, CT Posts: 110	Vegas 9 Compatibility Given that Vegas 9 is coming out in early May, can we get a quick summary of what Cineform products will be immediately compatible with that upgrade? My specific problem may be that I'm still using Neo HDV... will this now be the time that Neo HDV users will need to choose either NeoScene or NeoHD? If we DO upgrade to NeoHD now (v3), will we fit within the timeframe that we'll get a free v4 upgrade when it comes out shortly? Last edited by James Campbell; April 27th, 2009 at 08:07 PM. Reason: Added question

April 29th, 2009, 07:30 AM	#3
Mark Duckworth Regular Crew Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: Japan Posts: 93	So what your saying is that all Cineform products will not work with Vegas 9 (64bit Version)? I guess I should have expected that given Cineform doesn't work with Vegas 8.1. Disappointing. __________________ Intel Core 2 Quad E6600(@3GHz) \| Nvidia GeForce 9600 GT/1GB PCI-e x16 DVI \| 8GB DDR2-SDRAM \| 2 x 1TB S-ATA2/7200rpm/32MB Hard Drives \| Vista Ultimate 64

April 29th, 2009, 08:20 AM	#4
Gary Brun Major Player Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Kråkstad Norway. Posts: 229	But what he did say...was its coming!! __________________ http://www.mlotv.com

April 29th, 2009, 01:29 PM	#6
Joe Carney Inner Circle Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Centreville Va Posts: 1,828	You get both versions when 9 ships. __________________ Boycott Guinness, bring back the pint!!!

April 30th, 2009, 03:20 PM	#8
David Newman CTO, CineForm Inc. Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Cardiff-by-the-Sea, California Posts: 8,095	Just for the hell of it, I tried a 64-bit build of the Video for Window codec, expecting that it would requires a many many hours/days of fixes, and the damn thing just worked. I guess in the near future we will be support 64-bit Vegas after all (with the delay of an API change -- which we still want to get done.) P.S. I've only tested this with the 64-bit VirtualDub, but I expect Vegas 8.1 & 9 64-bit will work fine. __________________ David Newman -- web: www.gopro.com blog: cineform.blogspot.com -- twitter: twitter.com/David_Newman

April 28th, 2009, 10:42 PM	#2
David Taylor Major Player Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Solana Beach, CA Posts: 853	We have a long-standing good relationship with the Vegas team and we hope to have support in the future. Currently the Vegas AVI api will not read 32-bit components under 64-bit. The proper solution is a 64-bit version of our SDK that is integrated into Vegas. We talked with the Sony team about strategies at NAB, but it is not there yet.

April 30th, 2009, 07:04 AM	#7
Jay Bloomfield Major Player Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Voorheesville, NY Posts: 433	The sad thing is that Vegas 8.1 (64 bit) will read and write CFHD MOV files properly. The problem is that the Vegas 8.1 AVI plug-in only works with 64 bit codecs, while the remaining plug-ins work fine with 32 bit codecs. It seems like SCS could have made a simple change with Vegas 9.0 64 bit to allow access to 32 bit codecs and the AVI wrapper.

April 30th, 2009, 03:42 PM	#9
Jay Bloomfield Major Player Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Voorheesville, NY Posts: 433	Hey, you never know until you try.

May 11th, 2009, 03:43 PM	#10
Michael Gyori New Boot Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Vancouver Posts: 19	David Newman.... I love Cineform and don't want to be an annoying whiner on these forums, but it really hurts to read your post. So... after 8 months of Vegas 8.1 NOT working with Cineform.... just for the hell of it, you compiled a 64 bit version of the Cineform VfW codec and it worked?!?! Just for the hell of it? Not because some of your customers have been desperately requesting it so they can take advantage of their 64 bit systems? Please, please, please... Make a working 64 bit version of your Cineform codec a priority! Because no matter what you want me to believe, your post shows that it has not been important to anyone at Cineform at all.

May 11th, 2009, 04:46 PM	#11
Jay Bloomfield Major Player Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Voorheesville, NY Posts: 433	I think you are underestimating what is required to recompile code from 32 bit to 64 bit. Usually, it doesn't work, just by changing the target OS type. More often than not, it requires considerable rewriting and debugging and sometimes it's just better to ditch the 32 bit code and start from scratch. You should keep in mind also that the vast majority of PC-based A/V software uses the DirectShow interface to access filters and codecs. Sony Vegas is one of the few common programs left (VirtualDub is the other and that's freeware) that still uses the old Video for Windows interface. Then you have to consider both that most people are still using the 32 bit version of Vegas and that CFHD MOV files work okay in the 64 bit version of Vegas. Lastly, it is really the fault of SCS that 64 bit Vegas won't use 32 bit codecs embedded in an AVI wrapper. They could have updated the AVI plugins that import and render, but they chose to only allow 64 bit codecs to be used with the AVI wrapper. Vegas 64 bit comes with a variety of built-in 32 bit codecs (h.264, MPEG2, etc.) and they all work fine. All that taken into account, I think it's remarkable that Cineform was been responsive enough to even try to make a 64 bit VFW codec. That said, it's worth keep up the pressure, because if no one complains, then it appears there is no demand for the product.

May 11th, 2009, 08:51 PM	#12
James Campbell Regular Crew Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Cheshire, CT Posts: 110	Vegas 9 32-bit David, Just to follow up with your comment in a different post (... "Vegas broke compatibility with our 32-bit modes"), does this mean that with Vegas 9 32-bit, there will be problems currently? Because several of us are seeing this with Neo HDV files previewing within V9 (Sony Creative Software - Forums - Vegas Pro - Video Messages). Is our only answer to use Vegas 8 if we have Cineform files until the compatibility with 32-bit is repaired? I'm working on a 2 hour documentary that I'd love to be able to work on in Vegas 9 32-bit, because I'm having problems rendering in Vegas 8 due to the large amount of footage/photos/etc. I have about 70 hours of Cineform HDV files that it seems there's no way I can currently use them in Vegas 9. Unless Vegas 9 can work with Cineform, I'm stuck finishing this documentary in Vegas 8. Last edited by James Campbell; May 11th, 2009 at 09:01 PM. Reason: Added comment

May 11th, 2009, 10:40 PM	#13
David Taylor Major Player Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Solana Beach, CA Posts: 853	James, as Jay properly points out CineForm MOV files seem to work in Vegas 9. I'd take a handful of your AVI files and rewrap them to MOV using HD Link. Then I'd test them in Vegas 9 to verify that they work for you. If they do you could consider rewrapping all of your material to MOV. Yes that's a pain in the a**, but rewrapping is quite fast - almost as fast as a file copy. We haven't done any extensive testing in Vegas 9 yet (with MOV) because most Windows users are doing AVI work, and we know AVI doesn't work right now. We had a good meeting with the Sony people at NAB and there is mutual desire to get this finished. But we need to get through the PPro importer problems first....

May 12th, 2009, 04:30 AM	#14
James Campbell Regular Crew Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Cheshire, CT Posts: 110	David, I very much appreciate your information here. I referenced it in a post on the Vegas forum here: Sony Creative Software - Forums - Vegas Pro - Video Messages, and recommended that all Vegas users submit a ticket to request that Sony do all they can on their part to work on this compatibility. I know there are a whole lot of Vegas users that have Cineform in their workflow. I can't imagine why they didn't address this prior to release. As I stated in my Vegas post, I believe this is poor form on Sony's part to not make this known. Unless they're indicating by this that they're backing away from the support for Cineform intermediates, despite what they've told you at NAB. It'll be interesting how this plays out. These are the issues that make strong supporters back off of a piece of software... not a good idea in these days of many options.

May 12th, 2009, 10:47 AM	#15
John Cline Major Player Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Albuquerque, New Mexico USA Posts: 333	I use Cineform files extensively for archiving, they are a great balance between image quality and file size. I installed Vegas v9 32-bit yesterday and rendering to the Neo Scene Cineform codec is no longer an option. Cineform support in Vegas is absolutely critical to my workflow. This is a deal breaker for me and Vegas v9. All my other 32-bit VFW codecs (Lagarith, HuffYUV, Main Concept DV25 & DV50 etc.) seem to work. Do I need to reinstall Neo Scene or is there some fundamental incompatibility between the new Vegas v9 32-bit version and the VFW Neo Scene codec?