Timeline skipping issue

[Tim Bickford]

I submitted this issue to Cinefom. I figured it would not hurt to post it here. Perhaps someone can help me out.

I'm having an issue with P-Pro CS3 (3.2.0) that I believe is directly related to cineform. I just (last night) upgraded to prospect. The problem did not go away.


DESCRIPTION OF PROBLEM:

When using 24P files captured from my Canon XL H1 and or HV30 in a Cineform project preset (1440x1080 - 23.976) I get a skipping effect in my P-Pro project timeline. I have captured video both directly within the project and via HD-Link. I select clips from my video and build my timeline. I've done this hundreds of time. However, I get a skipping (like a record album skip) when I playback from the timeline. Sometimes it skips for a second. Sometimes it will skip (over and over) until I manual force the scrubber along. In the project that I am presently working on I captured canon HV30 video that was shot in 24P. I removed the pulldown using HD-Link. In P-Pro CS3 I insert the video into the timeline from the source monitor like I've done in the past. I them removed the original audio track and replaced it with a music track. The video and music requires no rendering. I did not add effects. There is no RED LINE above the clips in the timeline. When I play the video back from the timeline the scrubber sometimes takes 2 seconds to move. Then... 3 second into the play back it skips. The video skips and or jogs too. When I remove the audio (in this case the music) all together the video plays back fine. No skipping.


THINGS THAT HAVE CHANGED SINCE THINGS WERE WORKING NORMAL:

I rebuilt my machine. I'm now running Vista 64 Ultimate on a ASUS P6T Deluxe mother board. I have an Intel i7 processor (Quad-Core). I have 12 Gig of Ram, ATI FireGL video card & soundmax audio card. I also have (4) 250 Gig, 7200 RPM hard drives set up to raid10.


THINGS THAT I HAVE TRIED TO FIX PROBLEM:

I have updated all my drivers (including audio and video). I have checked my P-Pro settings until I am blue in the face. I have checked audio and video configurations in Vista 64. When I import the cineform files into a HDV project instead of using a Cineform project I have no problems. I also experimented with all different types of audio files (mp3, wav, etc). When I'm in a cineform project I get this problem. I just upgraded to Prospect hoping that it would solve my problem. It did not.


OTHER THINGS:

Prior to upgrading my PC I worked on a cineform high def project that I captured from my XLH1. My old PC was a duel core, windows XP 3 Gig of ram. I was having this same skipping issue. This is the main reason why I upgraded to my new PC.


I've googled this issue many many times. Looked in DVinfo etc. I've tried various Cineform setting within Aspect and now Prospect. I can't shake this problem. I can export the files (from a Cineform project) to any of the available formats. Exported files do not skip.

[Bob Hart]

Tim.


I tried replying to this but like a fool forgot to copy before posting so here is a recall version.


I have run into this problem only once or twice and thought it to be a limitation of my computer which is a no-name home assembled runnning PP2 and Prospect 4K on 2Gb memory, 3 x Sata drives only. Cineform presets work better than HDV. HDV bogs my system down and slips audio sync.

I find that I have to "pace" my command inputs and allow the computer to have a think between each step.

It might be worthwhile if you have not already done so, to pull up Windows Task Manager and watch the text percentage CPU duty readout as you work the scrubber.

I am a lot more ponderous and slower in working Premiere Pro than you are likely to be. I rarely use the scrub wheel function as it seems to provoke a "Premiere has encountered a problem and needs to close".

Another thing. - Are you using an optical mouse? (the ones with a little red light shining out the bottom.) These can sometime cause a rapid sequence of commands in a drag motion rather than one smooth motion if you move them over a grubby, coarsely textured or very shiny surface.

Depending on how fast your computer is, it may be interpreting your scrub wheel draggings as several or very many smaller commands and working its way through them all which might cause vision to baulk and skip.

PLease ignore my comments at will as I am far from qualified to theorise on things computerwise. I tend to my discredit, towards subscribing to the "inhabited by a malevolent spirit" apprehension when it comes to computers versus the more logical and systematic approach to dealing with a glitch.

[Tim Bickford]

Bob,

I do not have an optical mouse. Also, I should have plenty of horse power with this machine. I did watch my processor as you suggested. No issues with CPU usage.

This is going to sound lame. Whenever I need to render part of my timeline I always hit the ENTER key on my PC. Once the timeline is clear of required rendering I normally just hit the SPACE BAR. I just hit ENTER, with no required rendering (i.e. no red bars above clips in time line) the timeline played smooth not skipping. I then tried the space bar right after that. There was not skipping.

I did not save the project. I closed it and shutdown P-Pro. I then re-opened P-Pro and then my project. Hit the SPACE BAR. Play back is was normal no skipping.

Any thoughts?

[Tim Bickford]

Well it appears as though this little fix is no longer working. Not sure why. Here is more info on my system. Still no response from Cineform.

I Defraged my drives again too.

Here is more detailed system info.

SYSTEM INFO:

OS Name Microsoft® Windows Vista™ Ultimate
Version 6.0.6001 Service Pack 1 Build 6001
Other OS Description Not Available
OS Manufacturer Microsoft Corporation
System Name TimBickford
System Manufacturer System manufacturer
System Model System Product Name
System Type x64-based PC
Processor Intel(R) Core(TM) i7 CPU 920 @ 2.67GHz, 2668 Mhz, 4 Core(s), 8 Logical Processor(s)
BIOS Version/Date American Megatrends Inc. 0703, 10/15/2008
SMBIOS Version 2.5
Windows Directory C:\Windows
System Directory C:\Windows\system32
Boot Device \Device\HarddiskVolume1
Locale United States
Hardware Abstraction Layer Version = "6.0.6001.18000"
User Name ***********
Time Zone Eastern Daylight Time
Installed Physical Memory (RAM) 12.0 GB
Total Physical Memory 3.99 GB
Available Physical Memory 9.21 GB
Total Virtual Memory 23.9 GB
Available Virtual Memory 20.9 GB
Page File Space 12.3 GB
Page File C:\pagefile.sys



HARD DRIVE INFO:

Intel(R) Matrix Storage Manager

Intel RAID Controller: Intel(R) ICH8R/ICH9R/ICH10R SATA RAID Controller
Number of Serial ATA ports: 6

RAID Option ROM Version: 8.0.0.1038
Driver Version: 8.0.0.1039
RAID Plug-In Version: 8.0.0.1039
Language Resource Version of the RAID Plug-In: 8.0.0.1039
Create Volume Wizard Version: 8.0.0.1039
Language Resource Version of the Create Volume Wizard: 8.0.0.1039
Create Volume from Existing Hard Drive Wizard Version: 8.0.0.1039
Language Resource Version of the Create Volume from Existing Hard Drive Wizard: 8.0.0.1039
Modify Volume Wizard Version: 8.0.0.1039
Language Resource Version of the Modify Volume Wizard: 8.0.0.1039
Delete Volume Wizard Version: 8.0.0.1039
Language Resource Version of the Delete Volume Wizard: 8.0.0.1039
ISDI Library Version: 8.0.0.1039
Event Monitor User Notification Tool Version: 8.0.0.1039
Language Resource Version of the Event Monitor User Notification Tool: 8.0.0.1039
Event Monitor Version: 8.0.0.1039

Array_0000
Status: No active migrations
Hard Drive Data Cache Enabled: Yes
Size: 931.5 GB
Free Space: 0 GB
Number of Hard Drives: 4
Hard Drive Member 1: HDT722525DLA380
Hard Drive Member 2: HDT722525DLA380
Hard Drive Member 3: HDT722525DLA380
Hard Drive Member 4: HDT722525DLA380
Number of Volumes: 2
Volume Member 1: SOFTWARE
Volume Member 2: DATA

SOFTWARE
Status: Normal
System Volume: Yes
Volume Write-Back Cache Enabled: No
RAID Level: RAID 10 (striping and mirroring)
Strip Size: 64 KB
Size: 100 GB
Physical Sector Size: 512 Bytes
Logical Sector Size: 512 Bytes
Number of Hard Drives: 4
Hard Drive Member 1: HDT722525DLA380
Hard Drive Member 2: HDT722525DLA380
Hard Drive Member 3: HDT722525DLA380
Hard Drive Member 4: HDT722525DLA380
Parent Array: Array_0000

DATA
Status: Normal
System Volume: No
Volume Write-Back Cache Enabled: No
RAID Level: RAID 10 (striping and mirroring)
Strip Size: 64 KB
Size: 365.7 GB
Physical Sector Size: 512 Bytes
Logical Sector Size: 512 Bytes
Number of Hard Drives: 4
Hard Drive Member 1: HDT722525DLA380
Hard Drive Member 2: HDT722525DLA380
Hard Drive Member 3: HDT722525DLA380
Hard Drive Member 4: HDT722525DLA380
Parent Array: Array_0000

Hard Drive 0
Usage: Array member
Status: Normal
Device Port: 0
Device Port Location: Internal
Current Serial ATA Transfer Mode: Generation 2
Model: HDT722525DLA380
Serial Number: VDB41BT4C8S5YC
Firmware: V44OA80A
Native Command Queuing Support: Yes
Hard Drive Data Cache Enabled: Yes
Size: 232.8 GB
Physical Sector Size: 512 Bytes
Logical Sector Size: 512 Bytes
Number of Volumes: 2
Volume Member 1: SOFTWARE
Volume Member 2: DATA
Parent Array: Array_0000

Hard Drive 1
Usage: Array member
Status: Normal
Device Port: 1
Device Port Location: Internal
Current Serial ATA Transfer Mode: Generation 2
Model: HDT722525DLA380
Serial Number: VDB41BT4C9KGAC
Firmware: V44OA80A
Native Command Queuing Support: Yes
Hard Drive Data Cache Enabled: Yes
Size: 232.8 GB
Physical Sector Size: 512 Bytes
Logical Sector Size: 512 Bytes
Number of Volumes: 2
Volume Member 1: SOFTWARE
Volume Member 2: DATA
Parent Array: Array_0000

Hard Drive 2
Usage: Array member
Status: Normal
Device Port: 2
Device Port Location: Internal
Current Serial ATA Transfer Mode: Generation 2
Model: HDT722525DLA380
Serial Number: VDB41BT4C9KHNC
Firmware: V44OA80A
Native Command Queuing Support: Yes
Hard Drive Data Cache Enabled: Yes
Size: 232.8 GB
Physical Sector Size: 512 Bytes
Logical Sector Size: 512 Bytes
Number of Volumes: 2
Volume Member 1: SOFTWARE
Volume Member 2: DATA
Parent Array: Array_0000

Hard Drive 3
Usage: Array member
Status: Normal
Device Port: 3
Device Port Location: Internal
Current Serial ATA Transfer Mode: Generation 2
Model: HDT722525DLA380
Serial Number: VDB41BT4C8RXUC
Firmware: V44OA80A
Native Command Queuing Support: Yes
Hard Drive Data Cache Enabled: Yes
Size: 232.8 GB
Physical Sector Size: 512 Bytes
Logical Sector Size: 512 Bytes
Number of Volumes: 2
Volume Member 1: SOFTWARE
Volume Member 2: DATA
Parent Array: Array_0000

Unused Port 0
Device Port: 4
Device Port Location: Internal

Unused Port 1
Device Port: 5
Device Port Location: Internal

[Tim Bickford]

Still having skipping issue.

- reloaded P-pro CS3
- reloaded Prospect
- Triple checked video driver (latest upate)

Still skips (with or witout music)

Still ZERO response from Cineform

[Tim Bickford]

Got an email from Cineform today with the following suggestions:

1) Defrag Drive(s)

2) Lock Scroll

I've deraged the drives three times now. No change.

I tried the Lock Scroll. No skipping. However, playback looks like slow motion. Audio sounded normal.



When I open P-Pro and then my project, it always skips when I hit the space or select the play button in the program monitor. After one play through and a few skips (mostly in the first two or three seconds) the skipping stops. I can play the timeline smoothly. Then, out of the blue it starts again. If I shut down P-Pro and re-open I get the same skipping. Then it's gone. It does not matter what video clip I use. After the initial skipping, once I add some more clips, it starts over again.

I do not have this problem with standard def clips shot with my old XL2. It is just with the clips captured with cineform from my XL H1 and HV30.

[Bob Hart]

Tim.


This is likely useless but maybe try a test project at 25P if you camera can support that frame rate.

Then maybe try import your 25P camera footage into a 23.976 project which I guess will force conversion to the different frame rate and see how badly this changes things for the worse.

If it is no worse, then there is something not quite right.

My imaging is that for conversion to this 23.976 to work right, there might need to be a sort of pre-rendering stage from 24P added into the mix, or maybe you have to work in pure and honest 24P and export out to this 23.976.

It seems that maybe the sound is being rendered on the fly and every now and again, the vision and audio having to play wait-awhile and catchup to get back into sync again.

My sense is that there might be a setting you need to choose, either buried in the process there somewhere, or as you hint, maybe a piece of the software that has yet to be debugged or written that has not been contrary so far until you poked it with a stick and it came out of its burrow.

I know only enough to be a danger unto myself so please do not take my comments as having any validity.

[Tim Bickford]

Bob,

Thank you for both of your responses. Both my cameras are NTSC. I do not have a 25P option. Your theory about audio having to catch up sounds logical. Perhaps I should try to re-capture with the HV-30 and not bother removing frames. I still have boat loads of 24P that I shot with my XL H1 that has already been captured. It would take hours and hours to recapture all at 60i.

Again. I appreciate your efforts. I'm at wits end here. I've tried everything that I can think of. Is it normal get get skipping with Cineform files? I believe that my system is good enough to handle these files. The worst part is that I'm not even using effects.

I've never had an issue with P-Pro like this. I think this is a Cineform issue. I'm going to go back and triple check in SD. I'll also re-capture in HDV format (MPEG) from my camera to see if I get skipping with non cineform HDV files.

Thanks again!

[Tim Bickford]

Many people have suggested defragging my drives. Like I said... I've done this many times. However, after a bit of "googling" I've learned that the defrag program in Vista-64 may not defrag files under a certain file size. Also, as I noticed, you don't have the same kind of control nor options as in XP. I also noticed that the defrag times were really fast. I can remember waiting hours when I had XP. Not the case with my last defrag on my Vista-64 system. It was very fast. Maybe 30 minutes tops.

I'm going to try Diskeeper. It is highly recommended by most all frustrated Vista users.

I'm hoping that this may help.

[Tim Bickford]

I defraged my drives using Diskeeper. It took about 4 hours total. The Skipping is still there.

In the process of trying to repeat the error, using a single project, I noticed the following.

1) Open p-pro
2) Open Project
3) Wait until Prospect/Cineform logo is gone
4) Left click in timeline
5) Hit space bar

100% of the time it skips during the first 1 to 2 seconds. After resetting the scrubber, then hitting the space bar again, no skip.

After restarting P-Pro, then project, when using the ENTER key (in step 5) VS. using the space bar... it plays back normal. Then, it's just a matter of time before the skipping shows up some place else.

[Tim Bickford]

Moving on.

As soon as B&H opens (Saturday) I'm going to upgrade to CS4 and wait for Prospect-4 release. I'm hoping this will solve my problems.

Thanks...

[Dale Guthormsen]

Tim,


I used to be a PP user, and still do at times.

Just a thought.

As weird as this might sound, I had a huge lag problem and in the end I reduced paging files and virtual memory. I think I keep virtual memory at 128. I have moved to an I7 and first thing I did is reset these two settings to make sure i did not have similar problems.

I do not know a lot about computers, but that did negate the hang time problems.

Wish I could help more precisely.

[Tim Bickford]

Dale,

Thank you for your reply.

I wish that I had looked at this prior to removing P-Pro CS3. My plan is to upgrade to CS4 and Prospect HD. I'm somewhat limited to my knowledge of computers when it comes to this stuff.

I have windows setup to automatically manage my paging file size. Currently it is set up as follows:

Minimum allowed: 16 MB
Recommended: 18417 MB
Currently allocated: 12578

I've got four 250 Gig 7200 RPM drives set up to RAID-10 with about 100 Gig C: drive (for software) and 400 Gig H: drive (for video).

Perhaps I've overlooked something here?

Thanks for helping.

Tim

[Manuel Lopez]

Hello. I always set a fixed size for virtual memory page file, thus avoiding fragmentation. I use the recomended size.

[Matthew Wilson]

Hi Tim,
Do you ever get this problem resolved? I am having the same problem and it is driving me nuts. I really want to use CF, but even with all the wonderful new features, this has become a show stopper for me. Audio stutters and loses sync randomly when trying to play back, unless I use scroll lock, but then the frame rate is too slow.

I know a lot of people are using CF successfully, so I can't help but think it is not a common problem.

Matt