Canon 5D2 support?

Jay Bloomfield · January 22nd, 2009, 09:51 PM

Jon Fairhurst had some additional observations on Vegas 8.0c & the QT 7.6 upgrade:

http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/999339-post13.html

Julian Frost · January 22nd, 2009, 11:20 PM

So... I'm a bit confused about the Quicktime update. Is it just allowing us to rewrap the MOV file so that it correctly interprets the colorspace and then output it as another H.264 file? This will still not allow us to edit the file in real time in Premier Pro CS3, though, right?

Julian

Jay Bloomfield · January 23rd, 2009, 10:08 AM

The color levels issue is, for the most part, fixed and you can now edit the MOV files directly in both Vegas 8.0c and Premiere CS3, without having the blacks crushed and the whites clipped. But the previewing speed issue on most PCs is still there. The Cineform workflow gives you better preview speeds, as does a re-wrap to MP4. You can improve matters with RAM previews for short segments, but that is feasible on a PC, only if you running Vista x64 and you have >= 4GB RAM.

But the long-term solution to this problem takes an upgrade to either a dual Xeon CPU (8 total cores) workstation or a single CPU Quad core i7 system. Intel was supposed to announce soon, the availability of a dual CPU workstation motherboard that would handle 2 Core i7 CPUs (8 cores+), which also would be a major improvement:

Fudzilla - Dual CPU X58 motherboard pixelized

The high bitrate MOV files just are too taxing for most PCs to handle efficiently. That's why people are using either proxies or conversion to intermediate codecs, such as Cineform.

Edouard Saba · January 23rd, 2009, 11:18 AM

After trying all kind of programs for editing Mov 5DII files with Premiere CS3 on PC, I tried ProspectHD and I think I found a very good solution. In the beginning I wasn't able to convert the mov files with HDlink so I tried to simply import the original mov files on the timeline of Premiere and then export them as avi with cinerform. Then I could editing them without rendering.
After installing the new version of Vista Codecs and updating Quicktime to 7.6, I could convert the MOv file with HDlink, but the sound is not right and the beginning of the avi goes in slow motion. But surprisingly I can now just import the original mov files in a cineform avi project and make my editing without rendering!!! Preview is perfect.

Edouard Saba · January 23rd, 2009, 03:02 PM

I tried it under Windows 7 and it works perfectly.

Julian Frost · January 23rd, 2009, 04:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jay Bloomfield

The color levels issue is, for the most part, fixed and you can now edit the MOV files directly in both Vegas 8.0c and Premiere CS3, without having the blacks crushed and the whites clipped.

By re-wrapping the MOV file? How does one do this in QuickTime? Just saving it again? When I import the original 5D mk II files into Premier Pro CS3 and try to export them, Premier crashes if I have more than a few minutes of 5D mk II clips on the timeline, and I know I'm not the only one with this problem. What stops Premier Pro CS3 from crashing after the files have been run through QT?

Julian

Jay Bloomfield · January 23rd, 2009, 06:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Julian Frost

By re-wrapping the MOV file? How does one do this in QuickTime? Just saving it again? When I import the original 5D mk II files into Premier Pro CS3 and try to export them, Premier crashes if I have more than a few minutes of 5D mk II clips on the timeline, and I know I'm not the only one with this problem. What stops Premier Pro CS3 from crashing after the files have been run through QT?

Julian

Let me try to answer these questions one by one. If you install QT 7.6, the improvement that is made is strictly to the color level issue. It doesn't make the files any easier to edit. It just allows the NLE to work with the video just as a camera shot it.

If you want to work with the MOV files without any re-wrapping or re-encoding in Premiere or Vegas on a PC, you better have an extremely fast computer, preferably with Vista x64 and a lot of RAM. Unfortunately, although MOV files are a native format on Macs, they just don't edit as well on PCs. I've been using Sony Vegas and Premiere for years and I've never been able to edit MOV files on a PC, with any degree of efficiency. And none of those MOV files were high bitrate h.264 files like the 5D MKII produces.

So, assuming you don't have the cash to shell out on a high end Core i7 PC, just yet, what are your options? First you can rewrap the MOV file to MP4. MP4 files do edit a bit better on PC-based NLEs. Second, you could work with proxy files. I'm not going to get into that here, since you can search www.dvinfo.net or use Google and find out everything about proxy editing that you'd ever want to know. Third, you can edit the MOV files directly, but use RAM previews. This will allow you to preview small segments of your edited clip in real time. But this option works best with Vista x64 & adding RAM. Lastly, you could just re-encode everything to an intermediate codec, like Cineform. These options are presented from the least to most expensive. Personally, I use Cineform HD. The other advantage to Cineform is that you can edit in stages, re-render as Cineform and lose very little quality between each generation.

BTW, supposedly Premiere CS4 has better memory management under Vista x64 and reduces the number of crashes, caused by Premiere CS3 running out memory. I say "supposedly", because I have not yet upgraded to CS4.

Julian Frost · January 23rd, 2009, 07:43 PM

Thanks for the reply, Jay.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jay Bloomfield

First you can rewrap the MOV file to MP4. MP4 files do edit a bit better on PC-based NLEs.

...But MP4s are not supported in Premier Pro CS3, right? I believe I tried already!

Quote:

Lastly, you could just re-encode everything to an intermediate codec, like Cineform.

I tried the Cineform Neo HD trial and had nothing but problems with it (see above, and other threads!). After struggling with it for a several days, having HD Link crash constantly, being advised to purchase other software to support HD Link and still having crashes every time HD Link was used, I was told that Neo HD was not the solution I needed. I was told that since my NLE was Premier Pro CS3, I should use Cineform Prospect HD... which is way too expensive for a hobbyist like me. So all I can say is that I was not too impressed with my Cineform experience. I'd like to give them some money, but I don't think I can justify it based on what I've seen so far. Maybe the new version will be the solution I'm looking for.

Julian

Jay Bloomfield · January 23rd, 2009, 10:56 PM

Correct. The mp4 re-wrap is a Vegas option only and it really doesn't give you too much improvement in preview speed, if that's what you are looking for. People were suggesting this option only to get around the color level issue that was introduced by previous versions of QT.

My thoughts on Cineform are relatively simple. If you tried the demo and it didn't perform to your satisfaction with your files and your computer configuration, you shouldn't buy it.

When you start combining the intricacies of 5D MKII files with anything but a very recent vintage, high end PC, you are probably going to expose weaknesses that would never show up when editing most other video files. Keep in mind that the official statement from Cineform is that "full support" of the 5D MKII will only occur with the next major version (Version 4) of Cineform. I'm guessing that Premiere CS4, running under Vista x64 and using the new version of Prospect HD (when released) will provide the best option for editing the video from the 5D MKII on the PC. But we will have to wait and see. Neo HD, combined with Vegas 8.0c, running under Vista x64, presently gives usable preview frame rates on newer PCs, but the fps are still not real time. Of course, you'd have to ask somebody with a Intel Core i7 system, to get an unbiased opinion on this.

I'm sure that this problems with editing video from the 5D MKII, will gradually disappear, just because faster and faster computers will become available and catch up with the technology that the camera has presented.

Edouard Saba · January 24th, 2009, 08:46 AM

Of course, you'd have to ask somebody with a Intel Core i7 system, to get an unbiased opinion on this.

I have tried it with Windows 7 64 bit and my impression is that it works better than with Vista 64. Just little differences, but under Windows 7 the preview on Premiere of original mov files works perfectly without rendering.

Ray Bell · January 24th, 2009, 04:13 PM

Working on a PC....

I took a 5DMKII movie file, opened it up in the new Quick Time 7.6.. then exported the
file back out using the same settings as the original file... for color correction

Brought the new file into Premiere (CS3) with a Cineform preset, again the preset was the
same as the original file, though sound changed to 48K to bring it to norm.
Put the file on the timeline and rendered it. Checked that the colors were correct with
the scopes,they were good. Output the file to Mpeg 2 format (24P) and put it on a memory stick and played the file on the Playstation perfectly.

This should be the same workflow to create a blu ray disk from the 5DMKII

Edouard Saba · January 24th, 2009, 04:34 PM

Today, after reinstaling the new VistaCodec from shark007 (I really would like to know why without them, Cineform seems not working right), I got rid of the little delay I had sometimes during transition with Vista 64 (I didn't have it with Windows 7). Now I can work with original Mov files on Premiere without rendering and the preview works in both systems.
But I have a powerful pc.

Jay Bloomfield · January 25th, 2009, 02:36 PM

My guess is that you didn't have mp4splitter.ax (which comes with the Cineform package, but is not automatically installed) registered. The Vista Codec Pack installs a bunch of stuff like AC3 Filter, Haali Media Splitter and the Matroska/Gabest MP4 Splitter. The latter is MP4Splitter.ax.

Windows 7 has much better built-in handling of h.264 video than Vista does.

Edouard Saba · January 25th, 2009, 04:54 PM

It could be. shark007 Vistacodecs install the Gabest MP4 splitter. But why did the Cineform demo not install it?
The only problem I have now is the sound. When I preview the video after a while the sounds stops like an old lp and repeat the last few seconds over and over again. If I stop the preview and restart it again, the problem disappear for few seconds and then it comes again...

Jay Bloomfield · January 25th, 2009, 06:49 PM

mp4splitter.ax is not automatically installed when you install Cineform, because most people don't need it. The more extraneous codecs that you install on your system, the more likelihood that you will experience odd behavior when dealing with audio and video.

There's another thread about the Cineform AVI sound problem and a temporary workaround. In your NLE, open both the original MOV file and the converted Cineform AVI file. Use the audio from the MOV file and the video from the Cineform AVI file. Disable the other two tracks. If you want, you can render this project as Cineform and the resulting AVI file will have the Cineform video and the "good" audio. Or just edit it as needed.

The only problem with this workaround is that the audio and video tracks are from the two different files and they may be of a slightly different length. You may have to tinker with them to perfectly synchronize the audio and video. This is why this approach is only a temporary workaround.

January 24th, 2009, 04:13 PM	#26
Ray Bell Regular Crew Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 1,414	Working on a PC.... I took a 5DMKII movie file, opened it up in the new Quick Time 7.6.. then exported the file back out using the same settings as the original file... for color correction Brought the new file into Premiere (CS3) with a Cineform preset, again the preset was the same as the original file, though sound changed to 48K to bring it to norm. Put the file on the timeline and rendered it. Checked that the colors were correct with the scopes,they were good. Output the file to Mpeg 2 format (24P) and put it on a memory stick and played the file on the Playstation perfectly. This should be the same workflow to create a blu ray disk from the 5DMKII Last edited by Ray Bell; January 24th, 2009 at 10:07 PM.

January 22nd, 2009, 09:51 PM	#16
Jay Bloomfield Major Player Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Voorheesville, NY Posts: 433	Jon Fairhurst had some additional observations on Vegas 8.0c & the QT 7.6 upgrade: http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/999339-post13.html

January 22nd, 2009, 11:20 PM	#17
Julian Frost Major Player Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: California USA Posts: 576	So... I'm a bit confused about the Quicktime update. Is it just allowing us to rewrap the MOV file so that it correctly interprets the colorspace and then output it as another H.264 file? This will still not allow us to edit the file in real time in Premier Pro CS3, though, right? Julian

January 23rd, 2009, 10:08 AM	#18
Jay Bloomfield Major Player Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Voorheesville, NY Posts: 433	The color levels issue is, for the most part, fixed and you can now edit the MOV files directly in both Vegas 8.0c and Premiere CS3, without having the blacks crushed and the whites clipped. But the previewing speed issue on most PCs is still there. The Cineform workflow gives you better preview speeds, as does a re-wrap to MP4. You can improve matters with RAM previews for short segments, but that is feasible on a PC, only if you running Vista x64 and you have >= 4GB RAM. But the long-term solution to this problem takes an upgrade to either a dual Xeon CPU (8 total cores) workstation or a single CPU Quad core i7 system. Intel was supposed to announce soon, the availability of a dual CPU workstation motherboard that would handle 2 Core i7 CPUs (8 cores+), which also would be a major improvement: Fudzilla - Dual CPU X58 motherboard pixelized The high bitrate MOV files just are too taxing for most PCs to handle efficiently. That's why people are using either proxies or conversion to intermediate codecs, such as Cineform.

January 23rd, 2009, 11:18 AM	#19
Edouard Saba Regular Crew Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: Berlin Germany Posts: 25	After trying all kind of programs for editing Mov 5DII files with Premiere CS3 on PC, I tried ProspectHD and I think I found a very good solution. In the beginning I wasn't able to convert the mov files with HDlink so I tried to simply import the original mov files on the timeline of Premiere and then export them as avi with cinerform. Then I could editing them without rendering. After installing the new version of Vista Codecs and updating Quicktime to 7.6, I could convert the MOv file with HDlink, but the sound is not right and the beginning of the avi goes in slow motion. But surprisingly I can now just import the original mov files in a cineform avi project and make my editing without rendering!!! Preview is perfect.

January 23rd, 2009, 03:02 PM	#20
Edouard Saba Regular Crew Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: Berlin Germany Posts: 25	I tried it under Windows 7 and it works perfectly.

January 23rd, 2009, 10:56 PM	#24
Jay Bloomfield Major Player Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Voorheesville, NY Posts: 433	Correct. The mp4 re-wrap is a Vegas option only and it really doesn't give you too much improvement in preview speed, if that's what you are looking for. People were suggesting this option only to get around the color level issue that was introduced by previous versions of QT. My thoughts on Cineform are relatively simple. If you tried the demo and it didn't perform to your satisfaction with your files and your computer configuration, you shouldn't buy it. When you start combining the intricacies of 5D MKII files with anything but a very recent vintage, high end PC, you are probably going to expose weaknesses that would never show up when editing most other video files. Keep in mind that the official statement from Cineform is that "full support" of the 5D MKII will only occur with the next major version (Version 4) of Cineform. I'm guessing that Premiere CS4, running under Vista x64 and using the new version of Prospect HD (when released) will provide the best option for editing the video from the 5D MKII on the PC. But we will have to wait and see. Neo HD, combined with Vegas 8.0c, running under Vista x64, presently gives usable preview frame rates on newer PCs, but the fps are still not real time. Of course, you'd have to ask somebody with a Intel Core i7 system, to get an unbiased opinion on this. I'm sure that this problems with editing video from the 5D MKII, will gradually disappear, just because faster and faster computers will become available and catch up with the technology that the camera has presented.

January 24th, 2009, 08:46 AM	#25
Edouard Saba Regular Crew Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: Berlin Germany Posts: 25	Of course, you'd have to ask somebody with a Intel Core i7 system, to get an unbiased opinion on this. I have tried it with Windows 7 64 bit and my impression is that it works better than with Vista 64. Just little differences, but under Windows 7 the preview on Premiere of original mov files works perfectly without rendering.

January 24th, 2009, 04:34 PM	#27
Edouard Saba Regular Crew Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: Berlin Germany Posts: 25	Today, after reinstaling the new VistaCodec from shark007 (I really would like to know why without them, Cineform seems not working right), I got rid of the little delay I had sometimes during transition with Vista 64 (I didn't have it with Windows 7). Now I can work with original Mov files on Premiere without rendering and the preview works in both systems. But I have a powerful pc.

January 25th, 2009, 02:36 PM	#28
Jay Bloomfield Major Player Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Voorheesville, NY Posts: 433	My guess is that you didn't have mp4splitter.ax (which comes with the Cineform package, but is not automatically installed) registered. The Vista Codec Pack installs a bunch of stuff like AC3 Filter, Haali Media Splitter and the Matroska/Gabest MP4 Splitter. The latter is MP4Splitter.ax. Windows 7 has much better built-in handling of h.264 video than Vista does.

January 25th, 2009, 04:54 PM	#29
Edouard Saba Regular Crew Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: Berlin Germany Posts: 25	It could be. shark007 Vistacodecs install the Gabest MP4 splitter. But why did the Cineform demo not install it? The only problem I have now is the sound. When I preview the video after a while the sounds stops like an old lp and repeat the last few seconds over and over again. If I stop the preview and restart it again, the problem disappear for few seconds and then it comes again...

January 25th, 2009, 06:49 PM	#30
Jay Bloomfield Major Player Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Voorheesville, NY Posts: 433	mp4splitter.ax is not automatically installed when you install Cineform, because most people don't need it. The more extraneous codecs that you install on your system, the more likelihood that you will experience odd behavior when dealing with audio and video. There's another thread about the Cineform AVI sound problem and a temporary workaround. In your NLE, open both the original MOV file and the converted Cineform AVI file. Use the audio from the MOV file and the video from the Cineform AVI file. Disable the other two tracks. If you want, you can render this project as Cineform and the resulting AVI file will have the Cineform video and the "good" audio. Or just edit it as needed. The only problem with this workaround is that the audio and video tracks are from the two different files and they may be of a slightly different length. You may have to tinker with them to perfectly synchronize the audio and video. This is why this approach is only a temporary workaround.