Ghosting, why am I seeing it? at DVinfo.net

Mario Jesmanowicz · December 26th, 2008, 11:35 AM

I went to BestBuy and shot some demo footage on my own SD card to compare at home. Camer was Canon HG20.
Obviously I shot in all 3 modes: 60i, 30p and 24p. When shooting 24p I took a mental note to be very still and not move around. I even took a still shot: No panning, no zooming - nothing just a guy went by and it was ghosting.

I used Prospect HD to remove pulldown and then when intoto PPro CS3 1920x1080 23.976p and the file was native and already there I saw people walking by and ghosting.

what what is going on? WHat is a point of shooting 24p even if on steady cam when someone walks by there is ghosting. You don't see it in the movies. Is it possible that HDLink is not removing 3:2 pulldown correctly?

David Newman · December 26th, 2008, 11:49 AM

what are you capture setting? Screen Grab the settings window (Alt+Prnt Scrn) and post it here.

Mario Jesmanowicz · December 26th, 2008, 11:59 AM

here it is

Perrone Ford · December 26th, 2008, 12:09 PM

In the Pre-compression area you might try checking deinterlace...

David Newman · December 26th, 2008, 12:29 PM

I was testing to see that deinterlace was not selected and that is the most common user error -- never mix deinterlace with pulldown removal for 24p in 60i.

Mario, not sure what is going wrong. Can you capture a 10sec sequence to M2T and post that so we test the source.

Mario Jesmanowicz · December 26th, 2008, 03:03 PM

Ok I never posted video so I will just give you a link to 2 files from my web page.

One is exported cineform avi file around 72MB and the other is m2v ts mpeg around 11mb

http://www.marioj.com/24P.avi

and

http://www.marioj.com/24Pts.m2v

hope this works

Mario Jesmanowicz · December 26th, 2008, 03:10 PM

sorry the other link for mpeg would not work try this and it is only 6mb

http://www.marioj.com/24.mpg

David Newman · December 26th, 2008, 08:57 PM

This sequence doesn't have pulldown, so if you stop trying to remove the pulldown the frame rate will be fine. In the next release we detect the error of trying to remove pulldown from a 24p source. The camera you mention is AVCHD, yet you have offered an MPEG clip, why is that? Other confusing things, the CineForm AVI has an AC3 track, so that should not have come out of HDLink. It seems now of this data is camera original, all been preprocessed somehow. The camera should be MPEG4 with a .MTS extension.

Mario Jesmanowicz · December 26th, 2008, 10:29 PM

Ok First thing, it is Canon HG20 (like HF11 and HG21) it has an option of shooting 60i, 24P and 30P. I shot the first thing in 24p mode.

I used PPro CS3 with Export to "Adobe Media Encoder". Normally this file was m2v but when I had that as a link, it did not want to download so I renamed it as mpg. If I had Audio in it it would have become m2t file. The reason it has AC3Filter is because originally when I used HDLink there was no audio when converted so I read few forums and installed CCCP and AC3Filter. Now I get Audio during the HDLink conversion.

That is also why I offered cineform avi file that was an export

I can give you access to mts file but it is 300MB because I shot it for 3-4 minutes. I don't know how to split AVCHD mts file into smaller parts. My workflow is: Copy mts files from SD cards, Use HDLink to change it to AVI and then edit in PPro CS3 and export to (usualy m2t files - I have Avelink2Player that plays them then directly from my PC)

but I can try to give you access to MTS file here, but it is 300MB. I had to zip it so it would be downloadable extension

http://www.marioj.com/00000.zip

Mario Jesmanowicz · December 26th, 2008, 10:41 PM

I think I get what you were saying, you wanted to see my original mts file from the start. I understood that you wanted my "HDLink converted" files so I did it with the pull down then put it on the time line in PPro and shorten it to 10 seconds and exported it into mpeg and also cineform avi (which was 70mb)

but unfourtanetly if you wanted to see the original mts file from the Camers then you have to download the 300MB zip file from the above post. My upload speeds on the servers are around 1-2Mbps, so it will take you probably take you... wow (just did the calculations) a lot of hours 25 hours?

Unless there is a tool that could allow me to split the mts file into 10 second chunks???

David Newman · December 26th, 2008, 10:45 PM

I thought you had a conversion issue, and only the source can help with that. Sounds like you have or had a bunch of missing components, maybe you should wait for support to return Monday. Chop up an MTS file with any file chunker. That Zip file is taking too long to download, I only need the first 10-20MBs.
-----

Our posts crossed. If you can send chopped up source data that would be best (first 10 second is fine.)

David Newman · December 27th, 2008, 11:38 AM

The download completed last night, and the conversion and pulldown removal worked perfectly. Which AVC Decoder are you using?

Bernard Racelis · December 27th, 2008, 12:18 PM

The Canon HG is hard drive / file-based, not HDV tape, so if you shoot 24p, then it probably doesn't require pulldown.
Have you tried to simply uncheck the "Remove pulldown" option ?

David Newman · December 27th, 2008, 01:11 PM

It has pulldown, Mario just sent the wrong clip.

Mario Jesmanowicz · December 27th, 2008, 01:25 PM

When I start HDLink and look at the log during the conversion it says "Adobe AVC decoder" I bought coreavc, I have CCCP and ffdshow but I wouldnt even know how to tell HDLink to use another one. I uninstalled CCCP and Elecard but to no effect.

When you remove pulldown, do you see ghosting when people walk?

December 26th, 2008, 11:35 AM	#1
Mario Jesmanowicz Regular Crew Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Milwaukee WI USA Posts: 55	Ghosting, why am I seeing it? I went to BestBuy and shot some demo footage on my own SD card to compare at home. Camer was Canon HG20. Obviously I shot in all 3 modes: 60i, 30p and 24p. When shooting 24p I took a mental note to be very still and not move around. I even took a still shot: No panning, no zooming - nothing just a guy went by and it was ghosting. I used Prospect HD to remove pulldown and then when intoto PPro CS3 1920x1080 23.976p and the file was native and already there I saw people walking by and ghosting. what what is going on? WHat is a point of shooting 24p even if on steady cam when someone walks by there is ghosting. You don't see it in the movies. Is it possible that HDLink is not removing 3:2 pulldown correctly?

December 26th, 2008, 11:49 AM	#2
David Newman CTO, CineForm Inc. Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Cardiff-by-the-Sea, California Posts: 8,095	what are you capture setting? Screen Grab the settings window (Alt+Prnt Scrn) and post it here. __________________ David Newman -- web: www.gopro.com blog: cineform.blogspot.com -- twitter: twitter.com/David_Newman

December 26th, 2008, 11:59 AM	#3
Mario Jesmanowicz Regular Crew Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Milwaukee WI USA Posts: 55	here it is Attached Thumbnails

December 26th, 2008, 12:09 PM	#4
Perrone Ford Inner Circle Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Tallahassee, FL Posts: 4,100	In the Pre-compression area you might try checking deinterlace... __________________ DVX100, PMW-EX1, Canon 550D, FigRig, Dell Octocore, Avid MC4/5, MB Looks, RedCineX, Matrox MX02 mini, GTech RAID, Edirol R-4, Senn. G2 Evo, Countryman, Moles and Lowels.

December 26th, 2008, 12:29 PM	#5
David Newman CTO, CineForm Inc. Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Cardiff-by-the-Sea, California Posts: 8,095	I was testing to see that deinterlace was not selected and that is the most common user error -- never mix deinterlace with pulldown removal for 24p in 60i. Mario, not sure what is going wrong. Can you capture a 10sec sequence to M2T and post that so we test the source. __________________ David Newman -- web: www.gopro.com blog: cineform.blogspot.com -- twitter: twitter.com/David_Newman

December 26th, 2008, 03:03 PM	#6
Mario Jesmanowicz Regular Crew Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Milwaukee WI USA Posts: 55	Ok I never posted video so I will just give you a link to 2 files from my web page. One is exported cineform avi file around 72MB and the other is m2v ts mpeg around 11mb http://www.marioj.com/24P.avi and http://www.marioj.com/24Pts.m2v hope this works

December 26th, 2008, 03:10 PM	#7
Mario Jesmanowicz Regular Crew Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Milwaukee WI USA Posts: 55	sorry the other link for mpeg would not work try this and it is only 6mb http://www.marioj.com/24.mpg

December 26th, 2008, 08:57 PM	#8
David Newman CTO, CineForm Inc. Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Cardiff-by-the-Sea, California Posts: 8,095	This sequence doesn't have pulldown, so if you stop trying to remove the pulldown the frame rate will be fine. In the next release we detect the error of trying to remove pulldown from a 24p source. The camera you mention is AVCHD, yet you have offered an MPEG clip, why is that? Other confusing things, the CineForm AVI has an AC3 track, so that should not have come out of HDLink. It seems now of this data is camera original, all been preprocessed somehow. The camera should be MPEG4 with a .MTS extension. __________________ David Newman -- web: www.gopro.com blog: cineform.blogspot.com -- twitter: twitter.com/David_Newman

December 26th, 2008, 10:29 PM	#9
Mario Jesmanowicz Regular Crew Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Milwaukee WI USA Posts: 55	Ok First thing, it is Canon HG20 (like HF11 and HG21) it has an option of shooting 60i, 24P and 30P. I shot the first thing in 24p mode. I used PPro CS3 with Export to "Adobe Media Encoder". Normally this file was m2v but when I had that as a link, it did not want to download so I renamed it as mpg. If I had Audio in it it would have become m2t file. The reason it has AC3Filter is because originally when I used HDLink there was no audio when converted so I read few forums and installed CCCP and AC3Filter. Now I get Audio during the HDLink conversion. That is also why I offered cineform avi file that was an export I can give you access to mts file but it is 300MB because I shot it for 3-4 minutes. I don't know how to split AVCHD mts file into smaller parts. My workflow is: Copy mts files from SD cards, Use HDLink to change it to AVI and then edit in PPro CS3 and export to (usualy m2t files - I have Avelink2Player that plays them then directly from my PC) but I can try to give you access to MTS file here, but it is 300MB. I had to zip it so it would be downloadable extension http://www.marioj.com/00000.zip

December 26th, 2008, 10:41 PM	#10
Mario Jesmanowicz Regular Crew Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Milwaukee WI USA Posts: 55	I think I get what you were saying, you wanted to see my original mts file from the start. I understood that you wanted my "HDLink converted" files so I did it with the pull down then put it on the time line in PPro and shorten it to 10 seconds and exported it into mpeg and also cineform avi (which was 70mb) but unfourtanetly if you wanted to see the original mts file from the Camers then you have to download the 300MB zip file from the above post. My upload speeds on the servers are around 1-2Mbps, so it will take you probably take you... wow (just did the calculations) a lot of hours 25 hours? Unless there is a tool that could allow me to split the mts file into 10 second chunks???

December 26th, 2008, 10:45 PM	#11
David Newman CTO, CineForm Inc. Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Cardiff-by-the-Sea, California Posts: 8,095	I thought you had a conversion issue, and only the source can help with that. Sounds like you have or had a bunch of missing components, maybe you should wait for support to return Monday. Chop up an MTS file with any file chunker. That Zip file is taking too long to download, I only need the first 10-20MBs. ----- Our posts crossed. If you can send chopped up source data that would be best (first 10 second is fine.) __________________ David Newman -- web: www.gopro.com blog: cineform.blogspot.com -- twitter: twitter.com/David_Newman

December 27th, 2008, 11:38 AM	#12
David Newman CTO, CineForm Inc. Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Cardiff-by-the-Sea, California Posts: 8,095	The download completed last night, and the conversion and pulldown removal worked perfectly. Which AVC Decoder are you using? __________________ David Newman -- web: www.gopro.com blog: cineform.blogspot.com -- twitter: twitter.com/David_Newman

December 27th, 2008, 12:18 PM	#13
Bernard Racelis Regular Crew Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: New York City Posts: 82	The Canon HG is hard drive / file-based, not HDV tape, so if you shoot 24p, then it probably doesn't require pulldown. Have you tried to simply uncheck the "Remove pulldown" option ?

December 27th, 2008, 01:11 PM	#14
David Newman CTO, CineForm Inc. Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Cardiff-by-the-Sea, California Posts: 8,095	It has pulldown, Mario just sent the wrong clip. __________________ David Newman -- web: www.gopro.com blog: cineform.blogspot.com -- twitter: twitter.com/David_Newman

December 27th, 2008, 01:25 PM	#15
Mario Jesmanowicz Regular Crew Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Milwaukee WI USA Posts: 55	When I start HDLink and look at the log during the conversion it says "Adobe AVC decoder" I bought coreavc, I have CCCP and ffdshow but I wouldnt even know how to tell HDLink to use another one. I uninstalled CCCP and Elecard but to no effect. When you remove pulldown, do you see ghosting when people walk?