Neo HDV playback rate poor in Vegas

Stephen van Vuuren · November 3rd, 2008, 04:32 PM

Okay, I just switched to shooting with HV30, updated my NeoHDV to latest version, running Vegas 8.0c on XP SP3, machine is Core Duo 2.66 with 2 GB ram.

Set capture quality to "High". Playback is perfect in WMP, Divx Player etc. 24fps, smooth. However, just on timeline in Vegas and it won't play full size unless in Draft mode. Preview/Half plays fine, but Good/Half drops to 21 or so. CPU usage seems high at all levels.

I see from other threads here this has been an issue with earlier versions - is this a bug, Vegas and/or Neo HDV limitation? The big problem is previewing work for clients - half size does not cut it. I have wide gamut LCDs, so WMP etc. gives me inaccurate color.

Does adding AJA card help with this?

Chris Barcellos · November 3rd, 2008, 04:58 PM

This is a limitation associated with how Vegas processes the preview, from what I can tell. I have an Intell Quad, and it is same issue. I had an AMD Core Duo before, and it does seem to have changed from that. In one of the threads, I saw discussion about how PP uses the video card, and Vegas doesn't. I am guessing for the preview, Vegas uses a single core.... but I'll let the geeks figure that one out.

All this aside, I still go to Vegas rather than Premiere. I was a dedicated Premiere user for years, but Vegas has become so intuitive to me, and Premiere always seemed a bit unforgiving, and because of that I perfer Vegas, even with the disability. (Its strange I find myself saying that, as I was one poopoohing the program a few years back.) I usually use the lower preview setting to determine how the pace of the film is looking, and get a feel for the transitions.

If I am concerned about a particular scene, focus wise, or because it does n't look right. I can switch over to the High quality preview, and scroll through frame by frame.

Nice thing about these new high powered machines is you can also select and area and render it out from your time line, to another Cineform file of the same properties, and get a quick look on media player. Also, I believe there is a switch to turn off filter in the preview window, in order to see the image clearer. Left corner somewhere on the preview monitor, I think.

Jay Bloomfield · November 3rd, 2008, 05:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stephen van Vuuren

Okay, I just switched to shooting with HV30, updated my NeoHDV to latest version, running Vegas 8.0c on XP SP3, machine is Core Duo 2.66 with 2 GB ram.

Set capture quality to "High". Playback is perfect in WMP, Divx Player etc. 24fps, smooth. However, just on timeline in Vegas and it won't play full size unless in Draft mode. Preview/Half plays fine, but Good/Half drops to 21 or so. CPU usage seems high at all levels.

I see from other threads here this has been an issue with earlier versions - is this a bug, Vegas and/or Neo HDV limitation? The big problem is previewing work for clients - half size does not cut it. I have wide gamut LCDs, so WMP etc. gives me inaccurate color.

Does adding AJA card help with this?

It's a flaw in the Vegas preview algorithm. Generally, "Preview/Half" is about all you can hope for to get full screen, real time playback. But why don't you pre-render small bits of the timeline, only for segments where a full screen preview is really necessary? BTW, 21 fps with "Good/Half" is still quite usable.

Stephen van Vuuren · November 4th, 2008, 08:10 AM

Thanks for the confirmation. I just need to find another HD preview method for clients...

Jay Bloomfield · November 4th, 2008, 01:48 PM

This is not a knock on Vegas, but if you really need to be able to preview a long clip, full screen and real time, you are probably better off using Premiere CS3 (or CS4), since Cineform Aspect HD accelerates everything. Aspect HD replaces the "native" video engine in Premiere.

Stephen van Vuuren · November 5th, 2008, 08:59 PM

Did some more testing. Overclocked my 2.66 Dual to 2.93 Ghz and only got a few fps, not enough.

Copied files over to my Quad core 64-bit system that is Overclocked to 3.6 Ghz and Preview/Full works fine, even Good/Full works pretty much there. However, that's insane and pretty much confirms the bug as I also tried with files still on my other machine over a gigabit wired connection and playback unchanged, so hard drive is clearly not part of bottleneck - it's all Vegas.

Jon McGuffin · November 7th, 2008, 01:21 PM

So do you think Stephen this was more a function of the Quad Core processor or the 64-bit Vegas software that helped in preview performance?

Jon

Eugenia Loli-Queru · November 7th, 2008, 03:21 PM

Cineform works fine on my CureDuo quad 2.4 Ghz Vista PC in "preview/full" with Vegas Pro 8. In fact, Cineform is by far the fastest-decoding intermediate codec that I know. Sure, it's not as fast as HDV, but when you compare it to intermediate codecs and not delivery ones, Cineform is the fastest I've seen on the PC side (can't talk about ProRes on the Mac as I don't own FCP).

Chris Barcellos · November 7th, 2008, 03:46 PM

Eugenia:

What are you running for a Video card, by the way...

I have similar set up (Dell box) but with only 128 on the Video Card. Other thing is, I only have single on board drive, so my files are kept on a 1 TB USB 2 drive, and of course, that may cause issues with play. I will try transferring a Cineform file to my 600 gig main drive and see if playback rate changes.

Eugenia Loli-Queru · November 7th, 2008, 05:32 PM

Any modern 256bit card will do. Vegas only uses 2D DirectDraw acceleration, so what matters from graphics cards is not the excessive memory or latest 3D features, but the *bandwidth and speed* of their memory chips. For example, even a 64 MB non-3D card would be enough as long as the memory hardware around it flies.

Make sure you run at "preview (full)" btw. Yeah, USB can be problematic.

David Newman · November 7th, 2008, 09:31 PM

While Vegas is still a little slow in full screen mode (too many buffer copies is my guess), if you have a 4+ core system, expect some nice improvements in the next update to our entire product line (out next week.) We are seeing up 50% decoder performance improvement (and we where already pretty fast,) hopefully some of that will be experienced in Vegas. Read more on my blog about the changes : CineForm Insider: Even More Decode Speed.CineForm is making the fastest DI codec even faster.

David Newman · November 11th, 2008, 10:12 AM

Any one tried the new releases under Vegas yet?

Bill Ravens · November 11th, 2008, 10:39 AM

Just d/l'd the new version 3.4.5 build 186. Playback in Vegas still somewhat choppy down to "half size/Good"with a dual core 2.16GHz CPU on my laptop. <shrug> Will try on my quad core, but, never seemed to have a problem there, anyway. Is v4.3.1 the latest playback codec version?

David Newman · November 11th, 2008, 11:01 AM

For dual cores we only see about 5% improvement, most of the gains are on 4+ cores. Note: "half size/Good" is still full res. for the decoder, then Vegas scales it down for preview, it is one the slower modes for direct playback. v4.3.1 is the latest released, although v4.3.2 adds CPU affinity controls for those using DirectShow, so I showed in my Blog, but the speed it the same.

Bill Ravens · November 11th, 2008, 01:28 PM

I'm a little confused. I received the download link for v3.4.5 Build 186, but, when I install it, the log reads 3.4.5 Build 185. Is this correct? And where do I find decoder version 4.3.2? I checked your blog and didn't see a link to the public beta.

November 3rd, 2008, 04:32 PM	#1
Stephen van Vuuren Space Hipster Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Greensboro, NC Posts: 1,508	Neo HDV playback rate poor in Vegas - fixable? Okay, I just switched to shooting with HV30, updated my NeoHDV to latest version, running Vegas 8.0c on XP SP3, machine is Core Duo 2.66 with 2 GB ram. Set capture quality to "High". Playback is perfect in WMP, Divx Player etc. 24fps, smooth. However, just on timeline in Vegas and it won't play full size unless in Draft mode. Preview/Half plays fine, but Good/Half drops to 21 or so. CPU usage seems high at all levels. I see from other threads here this has been an issue with earlier versions - is this a bug, Vegas and/or Neo HDV limitation? The big problem is previewing work for clients - half size does not cut it. I have wide gamut LCDs, so WMP etc. gives me inaccurate color. Does adding AJA card help with this? __________________ stephen v2 www.insaturnsrings.com

November 3rd, 2008, 04:58 PM	#2
Chris Barcellos Inner Circle Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Elk Grove CA Posts: 6,838	This is a limitation associated with how Vegas processes the preview, from what I can tell. I have an Intell Quad, and it is same issue. I had an AMD Core Duo before, and it does seem to have changed from that. In one of the threads, I saw discussion about how PP uses the video card, and Vegas doesn't. I am guessing for the preview, Vegas uses a single core.... but I'll let the geeks figure that one out. All this aside, I still go to Vegas rather than Premiere. I was a dedicated Premiere user for years, but Vegas has become so intuitive to me, and Premiere always seemed a bit unforgiving, and because of that I perfer Vegas, even with the disability. (Its strange I find myself saying that, as I was one poopoohing the program a few years back.) I usually use the lower preview setting to determine how the pace of the film is looking, and get a feel for the transitions. If I am concerned about a particular scene, focus wise, or because it does n't look right. I can switch over to the High quality preview, and scroll through frame by frame. Nice thing about these new high powered machines is you can also select and area and render it out from your time line, to another Cineform file of the same properties, and get a quick look on media player. Also, I believe there is a switch to turn off filter in the preview window, in order to see the image clearer. Left corner somewhere on the preview monitor, I think. __________________ Chris J. Barcellos

November 4th, 2008, 08:10 AM	#4
Stephen van Vuuren Space Hipster Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Greensboro, NC Posts: 1,508	Thanks for the confirmation. I just need to find another HD preview method for clients... __________________ stephen v2 www.insaturnsrings.com

November 5th, 2008, 08:59 PM	#6
Stephen van Vuuren Space Hipster Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Greensboro, NC Posts: 1,508	Did some more testing. Overclocked my 2.66 Dual to 2.93 Ghz and only got a few fps, not enough. Copied files over to my Quad core 64-bit system that is Overclocked to 3.6 Ghz and Preview/Full works fine, even Good/Full works pretty much there. However, that's insane and pretty much confirms the bug as I also tried with files still on my other machine over a gigabit wired connection and playback unchanged, so hard drive is clearly not part of bottleneck - it's all Vegas. __________________ stephen v2 www.insaturnsrings.com

November 7th, 2008, 03:46 PM	#9
Chris Barcellos Inner Circle Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Elk Grove CA Posts: 6,838	Eugenia: What are you running for a Video card, by the way... I have similar set up (Dell box) but with only 128 on the Video Card. Other thing is, I only have single on board drive, so my files are kept on a 1 TB USB 2 drive, and of course, that may cause issues with play. I will try transferring a Cineform file to my 600 gig main drive and see if playback rate changes. __________________ Chris J. Barcellos

November 4th, 2008, 01:48 PM	#5
Jay Bloomfield Major Player Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Voorheesville, NY Posts: 433	This is not a knock on Vegas, but if you really need to be able to preview a long clip, full screen and real time, you are probably better off using Premiere CS3 (or CS4), since Cineform Aspect HD accelerates everything. Aspect HD replaces the "native" video engine in Premiere.

November 7th, 2008, 01:21 PM	#7
Jon McGuffin Major Player Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Carlsbad, CA Posts: 634	So do you think Stephen this was more a function of the Quad Core processor or the 64-bit Vegas software that helped in preview performance? Jon

November 7th, 2008, 03:21 PM	#8
Eugenia Loli-Queru Major Player Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Bay Area, CA, USA Posts: 348	Cineform works fine on my CureDuo quad 2.4 Ghz Vista PC in "preview/full" with Vegas Pro 8. In fact, Cineform is by far the fastest-decoding intermediate codec that I know. Sure, it's not as fast as HDV, but when you compare it to intermediate codecs and not delivery ones, Cineform is the fastest I've seen on the PC side (can't talk about ProRes on the Mac as I don't own FCP).

November 7th, 2008, 05:32 PM	#10
Eugenia Loli-Queru Major Player Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Bay Area, CA, USA Posts: 348	Any modern 256bit card will do. Vegas only uses 2D DirectDraw acceleration, so what matters from graphics cards is not the excessive memory or latest 3D features, but the bandwidth and speed of their memory chips. For example, even a 64 MB non-3D card would be enough as long as the memory hardware around it flies. Make sure you run at "preview (full)" btw. Yeah, USB can be problematic.

November 7th, 2008, 09:31 PM	#11
David Newman CTO, CineForm Inc. Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Cardiff-by-the-Sea, California Posts: 8,095	While Vegas is still a little slow in full screen mode (too many buffer copies is my guess), if you have a 4+ core system, expect some nice improvements in the next update to our entire product line (out next week.) We are seeing up 50% decoder performance improvement (and we where already pretty fast,) hopefully some of that will be experienced in Vegas. Read more on my blog about the changes : CineForm Insider: Even More Decode Speed.CineForm is making the fastest DI codec even faster. __________________ David Newman -- web: www.gopro.com blog: cineform.blogspot.com -- twitter: twitter.com/David_Newman

November 11th, 2008, 10:12 AM	#12
David Newman CTO, CineForm Inc. Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Cardiff-by-the-Sea, California Posts: 8,095	Any one tried the new releases under Vegas yet? __________________ David Newman -- web: www.gopro.com blog: cineform.blogspot.com -- twitter: twitter.com/David_Newman

November 11th, 2008, 10:39 AM	#13
Bill Ravens Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: santa fe, nm Posts: 3,264 Images: 10	Just d/l'd the new version 3.4.5 build 186. Playback in Vegas still somewhat choppy down to "half size/Good"with a dual core 2.16GHz CPU on my laptop. <shrug> Will try on my quad core, but, never seemed to have a problem there, anyway. Is v4.3.1 the latest playback codec version?

November 11th, 2008, 11:01 AM	#14
David Newman CTO, CineForm Inc. Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Cardiff-by-the-Sea, California Posts: 8,095	For dual cores we only see about 5% improvement, most of the gains are on 4+ cores. Note: "half size/Good" is still full res. for the decoder, then Vegas scales it down for preview, it is one the slower modes for direct playback. v4.3.1 is the latest released, although v4.3.2 adds CPU affinity controls for those using DirectShow, so I showed in my Blog, but the speed it the same. __________________ David Newman -- web: www.gopro.com blog: cineform.blogspot.com -- twitter: twitter.com/David_Newman

November 11th, 2008, 01:28 PM	#15
Bill Ravens Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: santa fe, nm Posts: 3,264 Images: 10	I'm a little confused. I received the download link for v3.4.5 Build 186, but, when I install it, the log reads 3.4.5 Build 185. Is this correct? And where do I find decoder version 4.3.2? I checked your blog and didn't see a link to the public beta.