Aspect HD

David Newman · September 22nd, 2003, 09:45 AM

<<<--Looks like 2.4GHz, 800FSB, dual channel 400MHz RAM, and single ATA100 drive works fine for 2 streams.

But will this handle the on-the-file CAPTURE & CONVERT?

And, how much disk space is needed to hold 1 hour of capture--using the C & C option? Using MAX quality setting. Using NORMAL quality setting? -->>>

A 2.4Ghz will do on-the-fly conversions at around 1.3:1, however this number will vary based on image content (it will be a little faster or slower as image detail changes.)

If you keep your M2T files (little point) your disk space is about 40GB per hour. If you automatic remove the converted M2T files your disk space is about 30GB per hour.

MAX quality averages a 25% higher data rate over the normal setting. Note: you will not be able to see the difference between these two. The numbers above are for the normal setting, which is all we ever use at trade shows and one-on-one demos because it is so good. We only added the MAX quality (large file size) for user insist on overkill, or those used to working with uncompressed data.

Steve Mullen · September 22nd, 2003, 09:45 AM

<<<-- Originally posted by David Newman <<<--

Drop frame vs Non Drop Frame is not the issue (an easy convert if is was.) It was more technical, I don't have the info on hand. -->>>

Whoops. Completely new question!

When I check MPEG-2 clip in FCP, it is DF (colons) and definitely does not behave at the 1 minute points like NDF.

So I'm wondering why the Aspect HD settings were specified to be NDF?

Very sorry. I may have hit Edit rather than Quote. Easy to do at 4AM.

Steve Mullen · September 22nd, 2003, 09:52 AM

<<<-- Originally posted by David Newman: A 2.4Ghz will do on-the-fly conversions at around 1.3:1, however this number will vary based on image content (it will be a little faster or slower as image detail changes.)

If you keep your M2T files (little point) your disk space is about 40GB per hour. If you automatic remove the converted M2T files your disk space is about 30GB per hour.

-->>>

So a 200GB disk is acceptable for me. That's 6 hours!

You are saying is that conversion on the fly will take about 1 hour 20 minutes to capture an hour. Fine!

How fast a CPU to get 1:1?

David Newman · September 22nd, 2003, 09:53 AM

<<<-- Originally posted by Steve Mullen :
<<<--So I'm wondering why the Aspect HD settings were specified to be NDF?-->>>

Steve, if you look into the project setting for Aspect HD, you will that we defaulted to 30p Drop Frame (not NDF). You can change that if you like. How timecodes are reported and how they are stored on tape are different issues.

David Newman · September 22nd, 2003, 09:58 AM

<<<-- Originally posted by Steve Mullen :
You are saying is that conversion on the fly will take about 1 hour 20 minutes to capture an hour. Fine!

How fast a CPU to get 1:1? -->>>

With a little speculation, a slightly overclocked 3.2Ghz P4 would do this operation around 1:1. We will try that in the next few days.

Steve Mullen · September 22nd, 2003, 10:15 AM

<<<-- Whoops.

Been up working since Sunday.

Should have said:

When I check MPEG-2 clip in FCP, it is NDF (semi-colon) and definitely does not behave at the 1 minute points like DF.

So I'm wondering why the Aspect HD settings were specified to be DF?

I reversed everything in my question.

"How timecodes are reported and how they are stored on tape are different issues."

Many folks will do a dub from a camcorder -- with TC counter visible on the anlog copy -- to DV or VHS to log footage. Thus, they need TC to match. It may have no technical impact, but it has a workflow impact.

David Newman · September 22nd, 2003, 10:23 AM

You can change it if you wish, Aspect HD works fine in either DF or NDF.

David Newman · September 23rd, 2003, 03:34 PM

<<<-- Originally posted by Jonathan Sarno :
<<<--What laptop configuration/model would you purchase?-->>>

<<<--I'm still waiting for the faster systems. They only days away (I just need comfirmation before a can say who will be selling them.) We are arranging to test these new systems.-->>>

Jonathan & others,

We have finish our testing of a 3.2GHz Dual DDR 800MHz FSB laptop with hardware RAID 0 (and 3 drive inside the laptop.) These are the awesome laptops we were waiting for. This unit is able to process up to 3 HD video streams with many filters. The CPU and RAM speed would have allowed for 4 streams, yet 2.5" drives can't yet match to performance of desktop drive hards (3 stream ain't bad.) This excellent laytop, perfect for mobile HD editing with CineForm's Aspect HD, is available from www.1beyond.com. The model we tested is the new DVPro 3216-X.

John Eriksson · September 23rd, 2003, 04:24 PM

Hi David!
Is it -possible- to run Aspect Hd on this machine? And if so how well can I work, what are the disadvantiges and so on:

Intel Pentium 4 1.4 Ghz
785 RAMBUS RAM
180 GB HDD 7500RPM
Matrox G450 DualHead
1 IBM LCD TFT "15
1 DELL "19
firewire card
Soundblaster 128
Windows 2000 SP4 or Windows XP SP1
Direct X 9.0b
Premiere 6.5 or Premiere Pro

Does it even run on this kind of "slow" computers? Or do I have to buy a brand new just for HD editing?? Please help!
/john

David Newman · September 23rd, 2003, 04:41 PM

<<<-- Originally posted by John Eriksson : Hi David!
Is it -possible- to run Aspect Hd on this machine? And if so how well can I work, what are the disadvantiges and so on:
/john -->>>

The any Window's XP system will "run" Aspect HD, however if you check the cineform.com web site you will see that your system is below the minimum system requirements -- this mean you will not get real-time editing. HD is fairly demanding, real-time more so.

I upgraded the internals of my old PC -- motherboard, RAM and CPU -- keeping my old I/O, video card, audio, networking etc, for around $500 (and that was 5 months ago.) I went from 800Mhz to 2.8Mhz (o.c.) so I can now do three HD streams in real-time. System upgrades can be done on the cheap.

John Eriksson · September 23rd, 2003, 06:22 PM

first thanks for your fast reply!

2 more..
1. will my computer manage to edit HD odinary without "realtime"?
2. and will my matrox g450 show the HD images in the second monitor via the dvdmax feature? (cause this works with dv today...) but will it work the same with HD? ?

+can you run aspect hd under windows 2000 pro sp4?
and if not -why?

David Newman · September 23rd, 2003, 07:00 PM

<<<-- Originally posted by John Eriksson : first thanks for your fast reply!
2 more..
1. will my computer manage to edit HD odinary without "realtime"?-->>>

Aspect HD is not designed to work less than real-time, but it does work. I have used a 1.7GHz PC with much slower RAM than your system, that worked OK. But "OK" means no real-time transitions, color correction, titles, etc (you have to render everything.) We DO NOT recommend this. Mid 2.xGHz gives you real-time. You should at least exchange the CPU with a pin compatible 2.0GHz part for real-time titles and color correction (this way you don't need a new motherboard or new RAM.)

<<<--2. and will my matrox g450 show the HD images in the second monitor via the dvdmax feature? (cause this works with dv today...) but will it work the same with HD? ?-->>>

It looks like it will, but we have never tested a G450.

<<<--+can you run aspect hd under windows 2000 pro sp4? and if not -why? -->>>

No. XP only. Aspect HD uses a DirectShow video component that in only on XP.

Raymond Krystof · September 23rd, 2003, 08:53 PM

David,

I have a question that is probably elementary and addresses the basics of Premiere itself. The question is, does Premiere 6.5 and or Premiere Pro with Aspect HD, support mixing 16X9 formats on the same timeline? That is to ask, is it possible to mix 16X9 DV material with 16X9 HD material encoded by AspectHD with or without transitions?

Thanks,

David Newman · September 24th, 2003, 09:49 AM

<<<-- Originally posted by Raymond Krystof : David,
.. is it possible to mix 16X9 DV material with 16X9 HD material encoded by AspectHD with or without transitions?-->>>

Yes, this can be done, but does require rendering to up-convert the DV 16x9 to HD. Premiere 6.5 handles this reasonably well as the default behavior. There is an issue that can make DV imports tricky that has nothing to do with Aspect HD or Premiere, you DV footage needs to be progressively scanned for a clean mix into a progressive scan HD production. If you shoot DV in "frame mode" you will have no issue -- it works fine. If you shoot 60i, you will need to de-interlace the footage (in Premiere DV mode) before importing it into Aspect HD.

Note: Aspect HD Premiere Pro is not complete, but the DV to HD conversion maybe handled differently.

Raymond Krystof · September 24th, 2003, 10:00 AM

Thanks David,

It keeps sounding better and better.

Do you have an approximate date that you think Aspect for Premiere Pro will be available? Do you have a date that the current price for AspectHD for Premiere 6.5 with free upgrade to Pro will end?

September 22nd, 2003, 09:45 AM	#61
David Newman CTO, CineForm Inc. Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Cardiff-by-the-Sea, California Posts: 8,095	Re: Speed and image settings <<<--Looks like 2.4GHz, 800FSB, dual channel 400MHz RAM, and single ATA100 drive works fine for 2 streams. But will this handle the on-the-file CAPTURE & CONVERT? And, how much disk space is needed to hold 1 hour of capture--using the C & C option? Using MAX quality setting. Using NORMAL quality setting? -->>> A 2.4Ghz will do on-the-fly conversions at around 1.3:1, however this number will vary based on image content (it will be a little faster or slower as image detail changes.) If you keep your M2T files (little point) your disk space is about 40GB per hour. If you automatic remove the converted M2T files your disk space is about 30GB per hour. MAX quality averages a 25% higher data rate over the normal setting. Note: you will not be able to see the difference between these two. The numbers above are for the normal setting, which is all we ever use at trade shows and one-on-one demos because it is so good. We only added the MAX quality (large file size) for user insist on overkill, or those used to working with uncompressed data.

September 22nd, 2003, 09:45 AM	#62
Steve Mullen HDV Cinema Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Las Vegas Posts: 4,007	<<<-- Originally posted by David Newman <<<-- Drop frame vs Non Drop Frame is not the issue (an easy convert if is was.) It was more technical, I don't have the info on hand. -->>> Whoops. Completely new question! When I check MPEG-2 clip in FCP, it is DF (colons) and definitely does not behave at the 1 minute points like NDF. So I'm wondering why the Aspect HD settings were specified to be NDF? Very sorry. I may have hit Edit rather than Quote. Easy to do at 4AM. __________________ Switcher's Quick Guide to the Avid Media Composer >>> http://home.mindspring.com/~d-v-c

September 22nd, 2003, 09:52 AM	#63
Steve Mullen HDV Cinema Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Las Vegas Posts: 4,007	Re: Re: Speed and image settings <<<-- Originally posted by David Newman: A 2.4Ghz will do on-the-fly conversions at around 1.3:1, however this number will vary based on image content (it will be a little faster or slower as image detail changes.) If you keep your M2T files (little point) your disk space is about 40GB per hour. If you automatic remove the converted M2T files your disk space is about 30GB per hour. -->>> So a 200GB disk is acceptable for me. That's 6 hours! You are saying is that conversion on the fly will take about 1 hour 20 minutes to capture an hour. Fine! How fast a CPU to get 1:1? __________________ Switcher's Quick Guide to the Avid Media Composer >>> http://home.mindspring.com/~d-v-c

September 22nd, 2003, 09:58 AM	#65
David Newman CTO, CineForm Inc. Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Cardiff-by-the-Sea, California Posts: 8,095	Re: Re: Re: Speed and image settings <<<-- Originally posted by Steve Mullen : You are saying is that conversion on the fly will take about 1 hour 20 minutes to capture an hour. Fine! How fast a CPU to get 1:1? -->>> With a little speculation, a slightly overclocked 3.2Ghz P4 would do this operation around 1:1. We will try that in the next few days.

September 22nd, 2003, 10:15 AM	#66
Steve Mullen HDV Cinema Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Las Vegas Posts: 4,007	<<<-- Whoops. Been up working since Sunday. Should have said: When I check MPEG-2 clip in FCP, it is NDF (semi-colon) and definitely does not behave at the 1 minute points like DF. So I'm wondering why the Aspect HD settings were specified to be DF? I reversed everything in my question. "How timecodes are reported and how they are stored on tape are different issues." Many folks will do a dub from a camcorder -- with TC counter visible on the anlog copy -- to DV or VHS to log footage. Thus, they need TC to match. It may have no technical impact, but it has a workflow impact. __________________ Switcher's Quick Guide to the Avid Media Composer >>> http://home.mindspring.com/~d-v-c

September 22nd, 2003, 09:53 AM	#64
David Newman CTO, CineForm Inc. Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Cardiff-by-the-Sea, California Posts: 8,095	<<<-- Originally posted by Steve Mullen : <<<--So I'm wondering why the Aspect HD settings were specified to be NDF?-->>> Steve, if you look into the project setting for Aspect HD, you will that we defaulted to 30p Drop Frame (not NDF). You can change that if you like. How timecodes are reported and how they are stored on tape are different issues.

September 22nd, 2003, 10:23 AM	#67
David Newman CTO, CineForm Inc. Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Cardiff-by-the-Sea, California Posts: 8,095	You can change it if you wish, Aspect HD works fine in either DF or NDF.

September 23rd, 2003, 03:34 PM	#68
David Newman CTO, CineForm Inc. Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Cardiff-by-the-Sea, California Posts: 8,095	<<<-- Originally posted by Jonathan Sarno : <<<--What laptop configuration/model would you purchase?-->>> <<<--I'm still waiting for the faster systems. They only days away (I just need comfirmation before a can say who will be selling them.) We are arranging to test these new systems.-->>> Jonathan & others, We have finish our testing of a 3.2GHz Dual DDR 800MHz FSB laptop with hardware RAID 0 (and 3 drive inside the laptop.) These are the awesome laptops we were waiting for. This unit is able to process up to 3 HD video streams with many filters. The CPU and RAM speed would have allowed for 4 streams, yet 2.5" drives can't yet match to performance of desktop drive hards (3 stream ain't bad.) This excellent laytop, perfect for mobile HD editing with CineForm's Aspect HD, is available from www.1beyond.com. The model we tested is the new DVPro 3216-X.

September 23rd, 2003, 04:24 PM	#69
John Eriksson Regular Crew Join Date: Aug 2003 Posts: 57	Hi! Hi David! Is it -possible- to run Aspect Hd on this machine? And if so how well can I work, what are the disadvantiges and so on: Intel Pentium 4 1.4 Ghz 785 RAMBUS RAM 180 GB HDD 7500RPM Matrox G450 DualHead 1 IBM LCD TFT "15 1 DELL "19 firewire card Soundblaster 128 Windows 2000 SP4 or Windows XP SP1 Direct X 9.0b Premiere 6.5 or Premiere Pro Does it even run on this kind of "slow" computers? Or do I have to buy a brand new just for HD editing?? Please help! /john

September 23rd, 2003, 04:41 PM	#70
David Newman CTO, CineForm Inc. Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Cardiff-by-the-Sea, California Posts: 8,095	Re: Hi! <<<-- Originally posted by John Eriksson : Hi David! Is it -possible- to run Aspect Hd on this machine? And if so how well can I work, what are the disadvantiges and so on: /john -->>> The any Window's XP system will "run" Aspect HD, however if you check the cineform.com web site you will see that your system is below the minimum system requirements -- this mean you will not get real-time editing. HD is fairly demanding, real-time more so. I upgraded the internals of my old PC -- motherboard, RAM and CPU -- keeping my old I/O, video card, audio, networking etc, for around $500 (and that was 5 months ago.) I went from 800Mhz to 2.8Mhz (o.c.) so I can now do three HD streams in real-time. System upgrades can be done on the cheap.

September 23rd, 2003, 06:22 PM	#71
John Eriksson Regular Crew Join Date: Aug 2003 Posts: 57	thanks for your fast reply! first thanks for your fast reply! 2 more.. 1. will my computer manage to edit HD odinary without "realtime"? 2. and will my matrox g450 show the HD images in the second monitor via the dvdmax feature? (cause this works with dv today...) but will it work the same with HD? ? +can you run aspect hd under windows 2000 pro sp4? and if not -why?

September 23rd, 2003, 07:00 PM	#72
David Newman CTO, CineForm Inc. Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Cardiff-by-the-Sea, California Posts: 8,095	Re: thanks for your fast reply! <<<-- Originally posted by John Eriksson : first thanks for your fast reply! 2 more.. 1. will my computer manage to edit HD odinary without "realtime"?-->>> Aspect HD is not designed to work less than real-time, but it does work. I have used a 1.7GHz PC with much slower RAM than your system, that worked OK. But "OK" means no real-time transitions, color correction, titles, etc (you have to render everything.) We DO NOT recommend this. Mid 2.xGHz gives you real-time. You should at least exchange the CPU with a pin compatible 2.0GHz part for real-time titles and color correction (this way you don't need a new motherboard or new RAM.) <<<--2. and will my matrox g450 show the HD images in the second monitor via the dvdmax feature? (cause this works with dv today...) but will it work the same with HD? ?-->>> It looks like it will, but we have never tested a G450. <<<--+can you run aspect hd under windows 2000 pro sp4? and if not -why? -->>> No. XP only. Aspect HD uses a DirectShow video component that in only on XP.

September 23rd, 2003, 08:53 PM	#73
Raymond Krystof Regular Crew Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Santa Clarita, California Posts: 97	Mixed formats? David, I have a question that is probably elementary and addresses the basics of Premiere itself. The question is, does Premiere 6.5 and or Premiere Pro with Aspect HD, support mixing 16X9 formats on the same timeline? That is to ask, is it possible to mix 16X9 DV material with 16X9 HD material encoded by AspectHD with or without transitions? Thanks, __________________ Ray

September 24th, 2003, 09:49 AM	#74
David Newman CTO, CineForm Inc. Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Cardiff-by-the-Sea, California Posts: 8,095	Re: Mixed formats? <<<-- Originally posted by Raymond Krystof : David, .. is it possible to mix 16X9 DV material with 16X9 HD material encoded by AspectHD with or without transitions?-->>> Yes, this can be done, but does require rendering to up-convert the DV 16x9 to HD. Premiere 6.5 handles this reasonably well as the default behavior. There is an issue that can make DV imports tricky that has nothing to do with Aspect HD or Premiere, you DV footage needs to be progressively scanned for a clean mix into a progressive scan HD production. If you shoot DV in "frame mode" you will have no issue -- it works fine. If you shoot 60i, you will need to de-interlace the footage (in Premiere DV mode) before importing it into Aspect HD. Note: Aspect HD Premiere Pro is not complete, but the DV to HD conversion maybe handled differently.

September 24th, 2003, 10:00 AM	#75
Raymond Krystof Regular Crew Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Santa Clarita, California Posts: 97	Thanks David, It keeps sounding better and better. Do you have an approximate date that you think Aspect for Premiere Pro will be available? Do you have a date that the current price for AspectHD for Premiere 6.5 with free upgrade to Pro will end? __________________ Ray