BD-R Direct, Superior to Cineform????"

[William Urschel]

As noted in the thread "Why is Procoder Useless with Cineform" (an issue which was subsequently taken care of with the uninstall of Nero 8), I have been finding it totally impossible for several weeks to make twitter free BD-Rs and DVDs with files from the Sony EX-1 Camera. I had been using Cineform intermediate encoding in this process. I just made BD-Rs absent Cineform, with only very minor twitter, a very substantial improvement, and given the otherwise superb operation of Cineform in all of its iterations, the result is not only suprising, but totally inexplicable! Attempting a Cineform free workflow to produce downrezzed twitter free DVDs (which had previously shown up only with extreme, grotesque twitter with Cineform) resulted in no similar improvement, or for that matter, no improvement at all.

My procedure utilizing Cineform was as follows:
1. Sony EX-1 SxS BPAV files were copied into a data drive on a powerful Boxx computer. The format was 1920x1080 30p.
2. HDLink was used to convert the BPAV file data into AVI files (set at High HD, no fields, no conversion of frame size.
3. Premiere was set up - Cineform Prospect 4K at a corresponding 1920x1080 30p, and the files were brought into Premier and edited.
4. Export from Premiere using Cineform resulted in a similar AVI file, 1920x1080 30p.
5. Encore was set up to encode a BD-R (H:264 1920x1080; 29.97, High Quality), the Cineform AVI was imported and a BD-R was produced - there was very notable twitter of fine lines within plus or minus 15 degrees or so of horizontal, more noticeable or less, depending on the monitoring devices.

The procedure without Cineform was:
1. The previously copied SxS BPAV files were brought into Premiere set up for EX 1920x1080 30p,, and edited.
2. Export from the Premiere timeline was made directly into Encore with the same H.264 set-up, and a BD-R was produced. The resultant BD-R exhibited only a very slight twitter, the level of which was discernable, but in comparison to the alternate method of production, slight, and quite acceptable to this editor.

There may not be anyone else in the world out there but me who is experiencing any objectionable twitter from the EX-1 on BD-R, but if so, are you getting similar results? And why in the world might the alternate procedure produce much less twitter - I haven't shot any test panels, but to me and other observers, both of the alternate above methods' results produce equal sharpness and absence of other artifacts, apart from the twitter. Of course no color shifting or other operations were performed in the edits.

[David Newman]

You have never posted images which makes it hard to help you, and for others to understand the issue. Even still frames would be nice. Interlace twitter means too much vertical resolution is being maintained for you output display -- key word is maintained, CineForm is not loosing resolution which would be bad. You have made matters tricky by using 30p on a technology that doesn't support it, BluRay. Do you have the same issues with a 24p source to a progressive display (you shouldn't)? You have pointed out before the 30p on a progressive display looked perfect. So you know this issue is not the source, or the CineForm compression. So you need a softer vertical, and we discussed that before, I even built a new filter set for you, yet you never reported back which setting filtered the vertical enough. If you could report back we will add that feature a standard control, so for those trying to put 30p in BluRay's 60i mode we can recommend the vertical filter setting.

[William Urschel]

Dear Mr. Newman:

Thank you, for as usual, your informative response to my query. I have continued to read this forum and to post issues here because I have found the comments posted here to be most clearly informative, helpful and, intelligent compared to other forums I have visited. But as I indicated on August 4 on a previous post here (Procoder, Post #17), "I obviously have no idea what I am doing". Accordingly, I am gone from here for the time being. Having spent over 14 hours yesterday completely reinstalling all operating and application programs on my main editing computer (sans trivial and/or possibly interfering programs), I am now truning my almost full attention to again producing great BD-Rs and DVD-Rs for my customers from what I understand: Adobe Premiere, Encore, Cineform Prospect 4K, etc., and the three Sony HDV camcorders outputting 1440x1080 60i at 60fps. And until I have something else that I can report on with any success and perspicacity, I am gone from this forum. But before I go, I will respond to your latest comments:

1. I have not posted images related to my problems -as reported earlier, at length and in detail, all images prior to BD-R and DVD-Rs have been superb as they appear on my computer screens, and I failed to perceive any point in posting them (at half resolution). I did have one N-Vidia program on my main editing computer that would play the abdominable DVD-Rs on my computer screens, but that program is no longer and will not be on that computer. In any event, I have no idea how to post any images from such output. Additionally, I have never had a program on that computer which would enable playback of produced BD-Rs.

2. You indicated that "You have made matters tricky by using 30p on a technology that doesn't support it, Blu Ray." Well I believe you have really gotten my attention with this comment (it is the second time you have touched upon it in response to my queries!). I really would like to shoot in 30p (and I have yet to supply my customers with acceptable discs made from the 30p shots I have previously taken). I may have to give into the negatives of interlace - 60i - or slower frame rate at 24p (why would Sony and others produce cameras that shoot in 30p?).

And yet Mr. Young's response to me (Procoder, #11) indicated that for DVDs made from the EX-1, with the best viewing arrangement, "looks 'broadcast' quality, and has enough detail to almost look HD". He specifically reported on his 60i workflow, but stated that "procedures and outcomes are the same as when I use 30p". It was not until much later that I was able to get Procoder 3 (which he included in his procedure) to work on my equipment and then apply my EX-1 30p output to the EXACT procedure for DVD-Rs which he enumerated.. It evidently worked wonderfully for him (and certainly if his site is any indication), but the grotesque twittering continued on my DVD-Rs, even though I used the exact same software and procedures used by him.

But it is not just Mr. Young who has successfully produced 1920x1080 30p from the EX-1. If I read their posts correctly, others who had similar positive results included David Alexander, David Williamson, and Garrett Low (on a Canon).

3. You commented (Procoder thread #9) "So you need a softer vertical, and we discussed that before, I even built a new filter set for you, yet you never reported back which setting filtered the vertical enough." That is correct. But I beg your pardon, I indicated to you (Procoder #14) that I attempted to utilize those in high def, and you subsequently informed me that, no, the filters were intended for standard definition. As I also then subsequently commented, I attempted to and was unable to use the filters (even though I spent two hours of effort) in standard definition, for which they were evidently intended. Again, I failed to understand the correct installation and application of these filters. And I did not get back yet for query about this, since I 1)was trying to salvage my current business with HDV camcorders, and 2) taking one last stab at producing useful BD-Rs.

So, I am off now to productive endevors which I comprehend, even though they do not encompass the EX-1 for the time being. Given the hundreds of hours I have spent in futility, I give up until I get my (and my customers') feet back on the ground.