Why is Procoder Useless with Cineform?

[David Newman]

Bill,

The test was for SD, those new filters where to remove vertical energy during the down scale (you can see the difference without burning a DVD.) Flicker on interlace SD displays with overly sharp source makes sense, and those filters will help. However, if you can't display unscaled 30p on a HD 30p display, something is really odd. It could be that you are doing 30p not 24p, as 30p is not natively supported on BluRay (you can use deinterlace in HDLink to address that.)

I think we have all been guessing at what the problem is, none of us being able to see it.

[William Urschel]

Thank you all for your efforts.

Mr. Young, thank you for your detailed workflow.

Mr. Newman, obviously I did not realize that the test was for SD. Today, I tried what I thought was the setup for the filters in SD, following your instruction, and thank you for that. I evidently misused it, as all I received were error codes (which I had never received in any aspect of Cineform before). If I decide to take one more stab at it , I'll send in a trouble ticket inquiring as to the proper procedure to install it, etc.. Additionallty, you were also kind enough to suggest that "It could be that you are doing 30p not 24p, as 30p is not natively supported on BluRay", and then you suggested that I could use deinterlace in HDLink to address that. So I did that. The result was a file 1920 by 1080, identified as progressive - when I put it in Encore, the resulting Blu Ray was the worst distortion I have ever seen, and the resulting picture was proportionately smaller than the full screen, vertically and horizontally. By the way, I have regularly sent HDV edits in progressive to Encore for Blu Ray MPEG with no problem and only good results.

I obviously have no idea what I am doing, so I am closing down everything! Next, I'll be wiping clean my C drive, for starters, and then re-installing Windows, and then everything else that appears essential, including just Premiere Pro, Encore, and Cineform. Then I'll try to make another test Blu Ray, and if the blasted twittering continues in high definition files from the EX-1, I will try some test shots in 1920x1080 60i and see what happens.

If I still have no high def satisfactory solution, I will next attempt to re-install and use Procoder 3. If I run into the same kind of utter non-sense again in attempting to put together a Blu Ray MPEG file, I will repeatedly contact the ProCoder staff for assistance, despite their claim that there is no warranty and no help for me because I am using Cineform! By that time, I should have the Vegas Pro 8 which I just ordered, and will also try that, for making a Blu Ray disc, using, I understand, the MainConcept engine there for the BluRay MPEG. Here we go again.

It appears that everyone but me is getting awesome results from ProCoder 3, is getting awesome Blu Ray discs, etc.???????????

I am still producing apparently faultless HDV > Blu Ray discs, which my clients exclaim wonderously about (and I believe justifiably so!). And my Boxx PC appears to be otherwise performing effectively and quite efficiently. And when I ingest the BPAV files from the EX-1 for proper shots, on my fully hi def 24 inch computer screens, I see everything that the EX-1 is apparently capable of, which of course puts any HDV in the shade. If I look very carefully, from four inches away from the 24 inch screens, I can detect a very, very slight SUGGESTION of interline twitter on very fine lines within 15 to 20 of horizontal. It is only when I end up generating Blu Ray discs from these files that I get the deplorable garbage.

If I can EVER make ProCoder work, or any other program beside MainConcept write 1920x1080 Blu Ray MPEG, I will attempt to follow the detailed work flow you have all so kindly suggested above. Again, I can currently make both BD-Rs and DVD-Rs using the smear of vertical Gaussian Blur, but if that is all that is possible from the superb EX-1, as one of my customers put it, why would anyone want it?

[William Urschel]

Well, well, hello everyone, here I am again! According to my time reports, as of last night, during the month of August I have now spent 108 hours (in addition to my "normal" work, now solely utilizing the Sony FX-1 - HDV) on the issue identified originally on August 31 in this thread. I have done two complete re-installs of the C program drive, and so much thanks to the thorough work flow described by Mr. Young, have been able to encode mv2 for Encore, using Procoder 3. It was Nero 8 which was negating the operation of Procoder 3, and Nero 8 is now in the garbage.

I am no further along in being able to produce ANYTHING useful from the EX-1, and I have all the file EX-1 shoots for my customers (for the first time in 16 years, many now ex-customers) going back to the beginning of May waiting for a successful rendition on either BD-R or DVD-R. And the issue remains entirely the extreme twitter on any fine lines, 1920p or 720p. Some of the FX-1 shoots I have "finalized", at customers' insistance, with terribly smeary BD-Rs and/or DVD-Rs (these produced: BPAV > HDLink > Premiere CS3 (with heavy Gaussian Blur and anti-alaising) > Prospect 4k for movie export > Procoder 3 > Encore > disc. I have been able to use Procoder 3 for DVD-R encoding, but have not been able to get Encore to accept its encoding for Blu-Ray. But no matter, because given all of the grotesque output of Encore, whether the MPEG2 encoding is done by MainConcept or Procoder seems to make no discernable difference.

It occured to m that the problem must lie with the EX-1. But that is very unlikely. And Cineform, as always, performs superbly! I say that, because (prior to the Gaussian Blur or antialiasing) everything coming out of Adobe Premiere, as viewed on two high def computer monitors, looks fabulous. It is only when rendered to BD-R or DVD-R that everything turns to twitter garbage, as viewed on the same two high def monitors, a high def Samsung screen fed by a Sony Blu Ray 300S (which plays ANYTHING else very nicely), another computer monitor, and a combo of a Toshiba uprezzing player with the fabulous Reon chip feeding a Panasonic 2000U front projector. The ONLY device I have which can make anything even begin to appear acceptable is the Sony Play Station 3 feeding the Panasonic 2000U projector.

So, again, thanks to you all for your attention and help. I will now shortly be posting on Adobe Encore (Adobe and Cow) and some of the EX-1 or CineAlta boards. In the meantime, I am going to try two more approaches: 1) EX-1 test shots and test BD-Rs and DVD-Rs in all possible venues possible, ranging from 1920x1080 60i to 1440x1080i, with and without decreased detail in the EX-1 PP settings. Since all my problems appear to start after a successful edit with Premier, I have purchased the latest "professional" edition of Vegas, and will make some test Blu-Rays and DVDs using that program. If I am able to salvage anything with the EX-1, I will post here. Otherwise I will not bother you all again with this insoluable garbage. But you may have an opportunity to purchase an inexpensive and very well cared for EX-1 and five 16G SxS cards!

[Bob Hart]

William.


For the sake of curiosity more so than a solution, could you perhaps try the lower quality capture path via firewire and create a short test clip. This may knock off just enough resolution that you achieve a clean process through the remainder of the path like you do with the FX1 and older cameras.

I realise capture is the very task you seek to eliminate with the EX1 and its SxS cards but if it works, it might be a workaround until a better solution for the file based workflow arrives.

Another question. Your shutter speed? What is it set at?

[William Urschel]

Mr. Hart:

Thanks for your thought. I had intended to try a firewire import as a part of the test procedure, though I expect the same results as import from the BPAV through the standard procedure. My shutter speed has always been set at 1/60th of a second, and my test procedures will encompass 1/60, 1/120, and 1/240 (though I expect strobing on the latter).

[William Urschel]

Just before I began to re-install the C drive on my main editing computer, I found that I was able to produce twitter free BD-Rs (but not DVDs) WITHOUT Cineform. Please see my new thread today, entitled "BD-R Direct, Superior to Cineform????"