m2ts vs cinform to dvd test at DVinfo.net

Jack Laurie · May 30th, 2008, 11:01 AM

In trying to experience the best sd dvd quality workflow I took a m2ts from a 24p hg10 and either ran it directly thru procoder at dvd master setting at 16:9 or thru hdlink to cine int-->premiere-->export cinform hd at 1440x1080 par1.2 , and at 720x480 par 1.2. And then run the cinform exports thru procoder. The dvd (and same on the pc) was markedly crisper sharper just running the m2ts thru. The 1440x1080 was close but softer less distinct. The 720x480 was bad with a sense of multiple lines of pixelation? running vertically. Actually the files even before procoder play the same as described as above so procoder isn't the issue.
I expected better from the cineformed exported files considering how happy everyone is with this. I would love to get happy with the cineform export so i can edit. What might I be doing wrong?

David Newman · May 30th, 2008, 11:17 AM

Make sure you don't have Desktop Playback set to Fast (set Start Menu->Programs->CineForm->Tools->Desktop Playback - Quality.) Some tools may be decoding CineForm files at half resolution.

Jack Laurie · May 30th, 2008, 11:23 AM

and the 'quality playback' setting can affect the real output quality from premiere pro, not just how it looks on the monitor?
I should be able to get just as good looking vid (for dvd) by exporting 720x480 as 1440x1080 from premiere? prior to procoder

David Newman · May 30th, 2008, 11:29 AM

Yes, exporting from PPRo will also work. I just like have a CineForm AVI master as full res. then use that for my down-converts.

Jack Laurie · May 30th, 2008, 11:44 AM

sorry just so I'm clear....can the lack of desktop quality setting affect hdlink's avi output? or just what is exported from prempro? (not sure if I need to re-hdlink my original m2ts.)

2nd... If my original was 60i would you deinterlace at the prempro export point or the hdlink point and then use 29.997 in procoder?And If my original is 24p(f) hdlink it with 3:2 pulldown remove then just export from prem at the same 23.97 p and use the 23.97-->29 fps setting in procoder?

David Newman · May 30th, 2008, 11:50 AM

HDLink output is fine. "Desktop Playback" is a playback only control for existing CineForm files.

Robert Young · May 30th, 2008, 12:05 PM

Jack
I am always baffled by this topic. So many people get such different results trying to do the same thing (HDV>DVD).
I spent the better part of a month a while back trying to pin this down and got results that are the exact opposite of yours.
For HDV>DVD my results were:
Best DVD image quality-
#1 CFHD 1080i .avi> Cineform 480p .avi (using Cineform compressor to rescale)> Procoder 3 m2v progressive
#2 CFHD 1080i .avi > Cineform 480i .avi (Cineform compressor for rescale)> Procoder 3 m2v interlaced
#3 CFHD 1080i .avi > Procoder 3 m2v interlaced
#4 HDV (m2t) > Procoder 3 m2v interlaced.
I can't imagine what accounts for the variability of results among users of these same products, but it seems to be an ongoing story.

Jack Laurie · May 30th, 2008, 12:22 PM

Lol Thanks Robert. I feel alittle less ignorant. I tried a small prem cine 720x480 export after changing cinefor playback to quality and it looks much better (thanks David). Do you also find that whatever you put thru procoder comes out pretty unchanged in quality...so it's all comparing the files before the final transcode.

Robert Young · May 30th, 2008, 03:49 PM

Procoder 3 works very well, but I have found that with Cineform 1080x1440 source files, the Cineform compressor does the best job of rescaling the CFHD image to standard def 480 avi. So, I always transcode to an intermediate Cineform 480 avi and then hand that off to Procoder.
This seems to be less of an issue when transcoding CFHD full raster sq. pixel 1080x1920 .avi. I have transcoded directly from CF square pix HD to DVD, Flash, Apple TV, etc., with very good results. Since I am shooting more with the Sony EX1 at 1080HQ and editing in Prospect, I should have a simpler workflow, and if I need to use HDV footage in the program I use HDLink to rescale the HDV to full 1920x1080 on capture. I'm guessing that the sq. pix. format may be the key issue, avoiding all of the tweaking from par 1.33 to par 1.2 etc.
I dunno, it's still rather mysterious and somewhat in the eye of the beholder as well.

Jack Laurie · May 30th, 2008, 05:02 PM

interesting.
one more basic question. If my source is canon 24p(f) with ultimate export to 23.97 480p with cineform from ppro, which frame rate to i choose for sddvd inprocoder? I'm thinking the 23.97-->29.976

Robert Young · May 30th, 2008, 07:31 PM

I don't have any personal experience with 24 fps to DVD. I suspect that you will need to convert to 29.9 with 3-2 pulldown somewhere in the chain because I believe the DVD format usually requires 29.9. If it's best to do that at the time you rescale from 1080 to 420 avi, or if better to be done by Procoder during m2v transcode, I don't know.
Canopus has a very active ProCoder forum- you might get good info by doing a search there, or posting a question.

Jack Laurie · May 31st, 2008, 10:25 AM

Thanks very much Robert, i will try there.
I'm getting good video with the 480p from ppr to procoder now but the audio was very slt out of synch . maybe doing pulldown at the export cineform step instead of procoder.mmm if i was I guess just picking 29.97fps would automatically do that from prem.

I'm a hobbyist and volunteered toshot my daughters hs musical show for the parents to buy. I shot both casts, first with 60i and then the next night with 24p since it seemed the whites were blowing out tomuch the first time. So I get 2 for one edu. on this.

May 30th, 2008, 11:50 AM	#6
David Newman CTO, CineForm Inc. Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Cardiff-by-the-Sea, California Posts: 8,095	HDLink output is fine. "Desktop Playback" is a playback only control for existing CineForm files. __________________ David Newman -- web: www.gopro.com blog: cineform.blogspot.com -- twitter: twitter.com/David_Newman

May 30th, 2008, 12:05 PM	#7
Robert Young Trustee Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Coronado Island Posts: 1,472	Jack I am always baffled by this topic. So many people get such different results trying to do the same thing (HDV>DVD). I spent the better part of a month a while back trying to pin this down and got results that are the exact opposite of yours. For HDV>DVD my results were: Best DVD image quality- #1 CFHD 1080i .avi> Cineform 480p .avi (using Cineform compressor to rescale)> Procoder 3 m2v progressive #2 CFHD 1080i .avi > Cineform 480i .avi (Cineform compressor for rescale)> Procoder 3 m2v interlaced #3 CFHD 1080i .avi > Procoder 3 m2v interlaced #4 HDV (m2t) > Procoder 3 m2v interlaced. I can't imagine what accounts for the variability of results among users of these same products, but it seems to be an ongoing story. __________________ Bob

May 30th, 2008, 03:49 PM	#9
Robert Young Trustee Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Coronado Island Posts: 1,472	Procoder 3 works very well, but I have found that with Cineform 1080x1440 source files, the Cineform compressor does the best job of rescaling the CFHD image to standard def 480 avi. So, I always transcode to an intermediate Cineform 480 avi and then hand that off to Procoder. This seems to be less of an issue when transcoding CFHD full raster sq. pixel 1080x1920 .avi. I have transcoded directly from CF square pix HD to DVD, Flash, Apple TV, etc., with very good results. Since I am shooting more with the Sony EX1 at 1080HQ and editing in Prospect, I should have a simpler workflow, and if I need to use HDV footage in the program I use HDLink to rescale the HDV to full 1920x1080 on capture. I'm guessing that the sq. pix. format may be the key issue, avoiding all of the tweaking from par 1.33 to par 1.2 etc. I dunno, it's still rather mysterious and somewhat in the eye of the beholder as well. __________________ Bob

May 30th, 2008, 07:31 PM	#11
Robert Young Trustee Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Coronado Island Posts: 1,472	I don't have any personal experience with 24 fps to DVD. I suspect that you will need to convert to 29.9 with 3-2 pulldown somewhere in the chain because I believe the DVD format usually requires 29.9. If it's best to do that at the time you rescale from 1080 to 420 avi, or if better to be done by Procoder during m2v transcode, I don't know. Canopus has a very active ProCoder forum- you might get good info by doing a search there, or posting a question. __________________ Bob

May 30th, 2008, 11:01 AM	#1
Jack Laurie Regular Crew Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: Riverside, California Posts: 33	m2ts vs cinform to dvd test In trying to experience the best sd dvd quality workflow I took a m2ts from a 24p hg10 and either ran it directly thru procoder at dvd master setting at 16:9 or thru hdlink to cine int-->premiere-->export cinform hd at 1440x1080 par1.2 , and at 720x480 par 1.2. And then run the cinform exports thru procoder. The dvd (and same on the pc) was markedly crisper sharper just running the m2ts thru. The 1440x1080 was close but softer less distinct. The 720x480 was bad with a sense of multiple lines of pixelation? running vertically. Actually the files even before procoder play the same as described as above so procoder isn't the issue. I expected better from the cineformed exported files considering how happy everyone is with this. I would love to get happy with the cineform export so i can edit. What might I be doing wrong?

May 30th, 2008, 11:17 AM	#2
David Newman CTO, CineForm Inc. Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Cardiff-by-the-Sea, California Posts: 8,095	Make sure you don't have Desktop Playback set to Fast (set Start Menu->Programs->CineForm->Tools->Desktop Playback - Quality.) Some tools may be decoding CineForm files at half resolution. __________________ David Newman -- web: www.gopro.com blog: cineform.blogspot.com -- twitter: twitter.com/David_Newman

May 30th, 2008, 11:23 AM	#3
Jack Laurie Regular Crew Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: Riverside, California Posts: 33	and the 'quality playback' setting can affect the real output quality from premiere pro, not just how it looks on the monitor? I should be able to get just as good looking vid (for dvd) by exporting 720x480 as 1440x1080 from premiere? prior to procoder

May 30th, 2008, 11:29 AM	#4
David Newman CTO, CineForm Inc. Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Cardiff-by-the-Sea, California Posts: 8,095	Yes, exporting from PPRo will also work. I just like have a CineForm AVI master as full res. then use that for my down-converts. __________________ David Newman -- web: www.gopro.com blog: cineform.blogspot.com -- twitter: twitter.com/David_Newman

May 30th, 2008, 11:44 AM	#5
Jack Laurie Regular Crew Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: Riverside, California Posts: 33	sorry just so I'm clear....can the lack of desktop quality setting affect hdlink's avi output? or just what is exported from prempro? (not sure if I need to re-hdlink my original m2ts.) 2nd... If my original was 60i would you deinterlace at the prempro export point or the hdlink point and then use 29.997 in procoder?And If my original is 24p(f) hdlink it with 3:2 pulldown remove then just export from prem at the same 23.97 p and use the 23.97-->29 fps setting in procoder?

May 30th, 2008, 12:22 PM	#8
Jack Laurie Regular Crew Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: Riverside, California Posts: 33	Lol Thanks Robert. I feel alittle less ignorant. I tried a small prem cine 720x480 export after changing cinefor playback to quality and it looks much better (thanks David). Do you also find that whatever you put thru procoder comes out pretty unchanged in quality...so it's all comparing the files before the final transcode.

May 30th, 2008, 05:02 PM	#10
Jack Laurie Regular Crew Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: Riverside, California Posts: 33	interesting. one more basic question. If my source is canon 24p(f) with ultimate export to 23.97 480p with cineform from ppro, which frame rate to i choose for sddvd inprocoder? I'm thinking the 23.97-->29.976

May 31st, 2008, 10:25 AM	#12
Jack Laurie Regular Crew Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: Riverside, California Posts: 33	Thanks very much Robert, i will try there. I'm getting good video with the 480p from ppr to procoder now but the audio was very slt out of synch . maybe doing pulldown at the export cineform step instead of procoder.mmm if i was I guess just picking 29.97fps would automatically do that from prem. I'm a hobbyist and volunteered toshot my daughters hs musical show for the parents to buy. I shot both casts, first with 60i and then the next night with 24p since it seemed the whites were blowing out tomuch the first time. So I get 2 for one edu. on this.