Flickering under titles at DVinfo.net

Adam Gold · April 2nd, 2008, 02:55 PM

Not sure if this is a Premiere or a Cineform issue, as I've never used Premiere without some version of Cineform, but it wasn't apparent using PPro 1.5.1 with the Cineform license, but is apparent in all projects I've done using CS3 with Aspect HD (Latest updates of each):

When fading in a title over video, whether I use the Cineform or Adobe dissolves, whether it's Additive Dissolve or Cross dissolve, the underlying video flickers on the first and last frame of when the Title on track 2 fades in and out, almost as if someone is popping off a flash. When I disable the track or remove the Fade, the flicker disappears.

At first I thought it was a rendering problem. The first project I noticed this on about six months ago, I had been rendering straight from the timeline to Cineform M2T. When I rendered to CFHD-AVI and then from AVI to CF M2T, the problem appeared to go away. But now no matter how I render it the problem persists.

Has anyone else experienced this? It's a CF 1080i HDV project and has happened on two different PCs. The current PC is a dual Xeon 5430, 4GB RAM, 10K RPM system disk and 7 x 1TB video disks in RAID 3.

Graham Hickling · April 2nd, 2008, 07:33 PM

Do you also see this when scrubbing the pre-rendered timeline, or only when you review rendered footage?

Adam Gold · April 2nd, 2008, 08:08 PM

No, it is not visible on the original timeline, even when preview files are rendered. It is only visible when rendered to a new file.

Graham Hickling · April 3rd, 2008, 08:21 AM

Try adding Cineform's 'force render' effect to the clip that's underneath the title. Does that help at all?

Adam Gold · April 3rd, 2008, 01:27 PM

Okay, you're a genius. Problem solved. Now all I have to do is figure out why, and if there's a simpler way than having to apply this effect to dozens/hundreds of shots for each project.

Can you explain the theory behind this, and what led you to this solution?

Indebtedly,

ag

Graham Hickling · April 3rd, 2008, 01:36 PM

Glad that's helped.

Thinking about your problem last night, I recalled a post perhaps a year ago where the guy reported having some kind of weirdness when he rendered titles (although not the 'flashes' you are seeing). Someone suggested forcing the underlying video to render, and that fixed it for him.

The fact that the flash happens on the transition between existing footage and freshly-rendered footage prompted the suggestion. But I have no idea *why* this is happening, sorry. Maybe a codec problem of some sort? - have you tried uninstalling and reinstalling the latest Cineform version?

Graham Hickling · April 3rd, 2008, 01:40 PM

A possible workaround meanwhile: when you are about to render, pull the entire sequence into a new sequence and apply the 'force render' to that?

Not ideal, but might save time at least.

Adam Gold · April 3rd, 2008, 02:11 PM

I'm just glad it works.

Maybe the CF guys can weigh in with an opinion as to why this is happening. I mean, isn't everything rendering when you export anyway?

And I think I didn't describe the problem well. It was less of a flash; upon closer inspection I saw that during the time of the transition, the underlying video just got a bit darker, then popped back up after the transition was over. Probably would have helped if I had described it properly in the first place.

Thanks again.

David Newman · April 4th, 2008, 10:31 AM

This is a likely a vsRGB vs cgRGB thing (try turning that off in the Playback Settings.) We don't use vsRGB in Prospect as it can course trouble (32-bit float is more reliable for handling supers.) The vsRGB mode in Aspect HD is try to squeeze an extra bit of dynamic range out of 8-bit RGB, the problem is titling is cgRGB, the mismathc is the issue.

Adam Gold · April 4th, 2008, 01:03 PM

I have no idea what any of that meant, but I'll look in the settings and see what I can find. I got the general idea; it's a settings mismatch.

In the meantime, the Force Render option isn't too onerous, especially if you do what Graham suggested and just drag the sequence into a new one and apply the effect to the whole sequence. If you only have one or two shots you can just apply individually, but a whole long series is easier with the nesting option.

Thanks as always, David. I can't even imagine using Premiere without Cineform.

April 2nd, 2008, 02:55 PM	#1
Adam Gold Inner Circle Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Woodinville, WA USA Posts: 3,467	Flickering under titles Not sure if this is a Premiere or a Cineform issue, as I've never used Premiere without some version of Cineform, but it wasn't apparent using PPro 1.5.1 with the Cineform license, but is apparent in all projects I've done using CS3 with Aspect HD (Latest updates of each): When fading in a title over video, whether I use the Cineform or Adobe dissolves, whether it's Additive Dissolve or Cross dissolve, the underlying video flickers on the first and last frame of when the Title on track 2 fades in and out, almost as if someone is popping off a flash. When I disable the track or remove the Fade, the flicker disappears. At first I thought it was a rendering problem. The first project I noticed this on about six months ago, I had been rendering straight from the timeline to Cineform M2T. When I rendered to CFHD-AVI and then from AVI to CF M2T, the problem appeared to go away. But now no matter how I render it the problem persists. Has anyone else experienced this? It's a CF 1080i HDV project and has happened on two different PCs. The current PC is a dual Xeon 5430, 4GB RAM, 10K RPM system disk and 7 x 1TB video disks in RAID 3. Last edited by Adam Gold; April 2nd, 2008 at 06:10 PM.

April 4th, 2008, 10:31 AM	#9
David Newman CTO, CineForm Inc. Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Cardiff-by-the-Sea, California Posts: 8,095	This is a likely a vsRGB vs cgRGB thing (try turning that off in the Playback Settings.) We don't use vsRGB in Prospect as it can course trouble (32-bit float is more reliable for handling supers.) The vsRGB mode in Aspect HD is try to squeeze an extra bit of dynamic range out of 8-bit RGB, the problem is titling is cgRGB, the mismathc is the issue. __________________ David Newman -- web: www.gopro.com blog: cineform.blogspot.com -- twitter: twitter.com/David_Newman

April 2nd, 2008, 07:33 PM	#2
Graham Hickling Trustee Join Date: May 2004 Location: Knoxville, Tennessee Posts: 1,669	Do you also see this when scrubbing the pre-rendered timeline, or only when you review rendered footage?

April 2nd, 2008, 08:08 PM	#3
Adam Gold Inner Circle Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Woodinville, WA USA Posts: 3,467	No, it is not visible on the original timeline, even when preview files are rendered. It is only visible when rendered to a new file.

April 3rd, 2008, 08:21 AM	#4
Graham Hickling Trustee Join Date: May 2004 Location: Knoxville, Tennessee Posts: 1,669	Try adding Cineform's 'force render' effect to the clip that's underneath the title. Does that help at all?

April 3rd, 2008, 01:27 PM	#5
Adam Gold Inner Circle Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Woodinville, WA USA Posts: 3,467	Okay, you're a genius. Problem solved. Now all I have to do is figure out why, and if there's a simpler way than having to apply this effect to dozens/hundreds of shots for each project. Can you explain the theory behind this, and what led you to this solution? Indebtedly, ag

April 3rd, 2008, 01:36 PM	#6
Graham Hickling Trustee Join Date: May 2004 Location: Knoxville, Tennessee Posts: 1,669	Glad that's helped. Thinking about your problem last night, I recalled a post perhaps a year ago where the guy reported having some kind of weirdness when he rendered titles (although not the 'flashes' you are seeing). Someone suggested forcing the underlying video to render, and that fixed it for him. The fact that the flash happens on the transition between existing footage and freshly-rendered footage prompted the suggestion. But I have no idea why this is happening, sorry. Maybe a codec problem of some sort? - have you tried uninstalling and reinstalling the latest Cineform version?

April 3rd, 2008, 01:40 PM	#7
Graham Hickling Trustee Join Date: May 2004 Location: Knoxville, Tennessee Posts: 1,669	A possible workaround meanwhile: when you are about to render, pull the entire sequence into a new sequence and apply the 'force render' to that? Not ideal, but might save time at least.

April 3rd, 2008, 02:11 PM	#8
Adam Gold Inner Circle Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Woodinville, WA USA Posts: 3,467	I'm just glad it works. Maybe the CF guys can weigh in with an opinion as to why this is happening. I mean, isn't everything rendering when you export anyway? And I think I didn't describe the problem well. It was less of a flash; upon closer inspection I saw that during the time of the transition, the underlying video just got a bit darker, then popped back up after the transition was over. Probably would have helped if I had described it properly in the first place. Thanks again.

April 4th, 2008, 01:03 PM	#10
Adam Gold Inner Circle Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Woodinville, WA USA Posts: 3,467	I have no idea what any of that meant, but I'll look in the settings and see what I can find. I got the general idea; it's a settings mismatch. In the meantime, the Force Render option isn't too onerous, especially if you do what Graham suggested and just drag the sequence into a new one and apply the effect to the whole sequence. If you only have one or two shots you can just apply individually, but a whole long series is easier with the nesting option. Thanks as always, David. I can't even imagine using Premiere without Cineform.