CineForm and Sony XDCAM EX

[Christopher Barry]

Serena, if I am not mistaken, since Premiere Pro 2, 32-bit internal processing and 10-bit video and 16-bit PSD file encoding has been available.

I read and hear people impressed by Vegas 8 having 32-bit processing, however, is it true that there is no greater than 8-bit file format that can be saved? If so, does truncating back to 8-bit have limited benefit?

As for the resolution of the EX, I can't wait! Also, as for it's sensitivity in low light, I really hope it is good, without the noise. Getting the curve right at the shoot will help, so that we are not pushing the limits of 4:2:0 in post. The HD-SDI out to an XDR type box is cool, even nicer for me if encoded to CineForm 10-bit at 1080p.

Edit: Regarding the use of knee, I try to not go above 'low' on my current camera, as the 8-bit encoding can make the results often funky. Always some play off in the image chain...

Where are these AU$9k deals?

And where is the footage, anyone?

[Serena Steuart]

I understand that the new 32 bit in Vegas applies to the video files rather than just to internal processing, for 8 bit internal processing wouldn't get you very far.

If you haven't yet ordered the EX and are interested in the cheaper deal I'll see if it's still on. Unfortunately I got carried away and ordered mine too soon to participate. The idea was to do a bulk purchase and get a better price that way; using market power!

[John Hewat]

Originally Posted by Serena Steuart

If you haven't yet ordered the EX and are interested in the cheaper deal I'll see if it's still on...

Please let me know too! I'm very keen.

[Christopher Barry]

Serena, does Vegas 8 allow you to save 10-bit AVI or 10-bit NEO files?

I had that day ordered the EX through Noel at TasmanAV. I am cool with my deal, I just thought perhaps that price you mentioned may be available straight up from an authorised Sony dealer here in AU. My deal gets me the addition of a Kata bag and the larger battery. I really want the EX's extra resolution and detail, together with (hopefully) low light sensitivity and reduced noise. I sound like a broken record, however, these are things I need to improve for some proposed productions that are specifically affected by these shooting conditions, and CineForm will stop what ever I capture from degrading any further, save my own destructive processing.

Thanks for the feedback. Now we wait....

[Marty Baggen]

The EX records natively in the MP4 format (presumably in both camera modes).

Unless I'm missing something, isn't this format readable by Premiere?

I understand even if so, we're stuck with long GOP unless transcoded by Prospect or Aspect... but can Premiere edit EX's raw files?

What does MXF provide that either MP4 or Cineform files do not?

[David Newman]

Originally Posted by Marty Baggen

What does MXF provide that either MP4 or Cineform files do not?

If MXF would take off as widely adopted wrapping format is has it pluses, but it main limitation, as with MP4, is the limited tool support. While the CineForm compression is more robust for production, what makes it so easy to use is it AVI wrapper format (MOV on Mac,) allowing to widest range of compatibility with video post-production and media authoring tools.

[Serena Steuart]

Originally Posted by Christopher Barry

Serena, does Vegas 8 allow you to save 10-bit AVI or 10-bit NEO files?

I had that day ordered the EX through Noel at TasmanAV. I am cool with my deal, I just thought perhaps that price you mentioned may be available straight up from an authorised Sony dealer here in AU. My deal gets me the addition of a Kata bag and the larger battery. I really want the EX's extra resolution and detail, together with (hopefully) low light sensitivity and reduced noise. I sound like a broken record, however, these are things I need to improve for some proposed productions that are specifically affected by these shooting conditions, and CineForm will stop what ever I capture from degrading any further, save my own destructive processing.

Thanks for the feedback. Now we wait....

Vegas? Yes.

The deal? Yes the price was a straight up from an authorised dealer in Sydney, but obtained by one of our major contributors here. He proposed arranging to buy in bulk (5 or more to cut the price even more), but that is his deal and I reckon I must leave it to him to contact anyone interested. I can prompt him, but not more.

[Marty Baggen]

Originally Posted by David Newman

If MXF would take off as widely adopted wrapping format is has it pluses, but it main limitation, as with MP4, is the limited tool support. While the CineForm compression is more robust for production, what makes it so easy to use is it AVI wrapper format (MOV on Mac,) allowing to widest range of compatibility with video post-production and media authoring tools.

I still don't get the advantage of going through an MP4 to MXF conversion. If this is just an MXF wrapper... then I suppose it isn't a true conversion.

I was under the impression that MP4 was more universal than MXF, but if that isn't the case... then putting an MXF wrapper for wider usability makes sense.

Still doesn't answer the question of whether Premiere can edit EX files (MP4) natively, albeit... less efficiently than Cineform AVI, as is the case with M2T files.

[David Newman]

Sorry, some NDA restiction limit me from fully addressing the question. Some tools will use MP4 for some clips types natively, others prefer MXF, and others still prefer AVI.

[Christopher Barry]

Originally Posted by Serena Steuart

The deal? Yes the price was a straight up from an authorised dealer in Sydney, but obtained by one of our major contributors here. He proposed arranging to buy in bulk (5 or more to cut the price even more), but that is his deal and I reckon I must leave it to him to contact anyone interested. I can prompt him, but not more.

Serena, I may contact you in due course to get contributors details, as I may require a second EX end of Q1 2008, and also, a friend of mine will be looking for an EX, if mine proves to solve limitations with his existing camera. Thanks.

[Mike McCarthy]

Originally Posted by Serena Steuart

So there is the facility for client (and me) to quickly review clips. Everyone gets that software and I understand we are permitted to provide copies to clients. What isn't clear (to me) from David's description is how HDLink will improve on this and I have already described where I can see deficiencies rather than benefits. When I go into my NLE I want to use Cineform, but expect to enter that stage when shooting pressure is off.

I don't think HDlink will benefit you for THIS part of the process, but it should not effect it at all. Someone else mentioned auto-converting files to CF AVI on copy from the SxS card, but that is not the current workflow, and this is not the step David Newman was referring to skipping. You will still have your raw SxS data available for preview and client dailies, and HDLink will make conversions after the fact. This should be very similar to the P2->Cineform workflow. I believe the idea is that hopefully in the near future, you will not need to convert your raw files to MXF before importing them into HDLink.

[Ray Bell]

Originally Posted by David Newman

Sorry, some NDA restiction limit me from fully addressing the question. Some tools will use MP4 for some clips types natively, others prefer MXF, and others still prefer AVI.

David, was curious as to when the NDA expires and you can fill us in with
more details...

[John Hewat]

Originally Posted by David Newman

It is to save a step. Native EX files (whether on SxS or transferred to disk) would have to be converted to MXF before using HDLink to convert to AVI. However wouldn't it be nice to transfer the data quickly as is, then batch in HDLink to AVIs while you are using the SxS again in camera. Media is not tied up.

Question:

There's a thread here discussing the fact that the Sony software that ships with the camera (which is already available for download) only allows conversion of files into 1440x1080 files. So far, the Sony software does not allow for the preservation of full 1920x1080 files (presumably because their current XD-Cam standard is 1440x1080).

That said, unless Prospect HD does get updated to bypass the Sony software, there's no way we can work with 1920x1080 footage!

Because if we use HDLink to turn the MXFs into AVIs, we'll be doing it with 1440x1080 MXFs.

Am I right? It seems a huge oversight for Sony not to enable us to edit the full 1920 reolution that this camera is capable of.

But as it stands, I'm under the impression that possible CS3 workflows are (for HQ mode only):

OPTION A:
1. Shoot 1920x1080 MP4.
2. Drag to PC.
3. Use Sony Software to convert 1920x1080 MP4 to 1440x1080 MXF.
4. Use HDLink to convert 1440x1080 MXF to 1440x1080 AVI.
5. Edit in CS3 with Prospect HD.

OPTION B (if I understand David correctly):
1. Shoot 1920x1080 MP4
2. Drag to PC.
3. Use HDLink to convert 1920x1080 MP4 to 1920x1080 AVI.
4. Edit in CS3 with Prospect HD.

OPTION C (because some are saying that MP4s are readable in CS3):
1. Shoot 1920x1080 MP4.
2. Drag to PC.
3. Edit in CS3 with or without Prospect HD.

I want Option B to work.

David, can you comment on whether I have understood you correctly in what I've written there? That Option B is on the horizon?

Or have I misunderstood something?

[Marty Baggen]

Early reports are that Vegas 8 directly imports 1920 x 1080 without the Sony Clip Software.

[John Hewat]

Originally Posted by Marty Baggen

Early reports are that Vegas 8 directly imports 1920 x 1080 without the Sony Clip Software.

That's positive news I guess. Let's hope Prospect HD allows us to do the same with CS3...