CineForm and Sony XDCAM EX

Johnnie Behiri · January 22nd, 2008, 02:28 AM

Thank you David.

All was send to support.
BTW, it will be nice to be able to install HDlink as a separate program. Sometimes, a second computer just for converting files, will not have the Premiere installed.

Michael H. Stevens · January 27th, 2008, 12:04 AM

I was about to update my NEO HDV (which I haven't even used yet) to NEO HD to use with Vegas 8 with my new EX1 capturing 1920x1080P, and over on the Vegas forum I'm hearing that NEO is not needed, or is of only limited use, for the EX1 as long as the computer is current.

Can someone explain why I am hearing this or counter if you don't agree.

Mike

Carl Middleton · January 27th, 2008, 01:08 AM

It depends on if you're talking Neo HDV or Neo HD. Please doublecheck the specs (as I use Aspect, not Neo) but I believe Neo HD is 10 bit color as opposed to 8 bit, which would help with multigenerational workflows and heavy correction or compositing work. It's also great for keeping a visually lossless master copy. Also, the framerate and resize tools in HDLink are very handy!

Carl

Michael H. Stevens · January 27th, 2008, 08:34 AM

Carl: Neo HDV is 8 bit and Neo HD is 10 bit but that is not the point. The point is with the EX1 (.mfx file codec) with a good processor some say you don't need Cineform at all because the codec is so much more efficient than HDV.

Bill Ravens · January 27th, 2008, 09:39 AM

I agree with Carl. Even if one doesn't need Neo HD to load EX1 mxf files on the Vegas timeline, Neo HD makes an excellent intermediate or archival format.

Michael H. Stevens · January 27th, 2008, 11:53 AM

Bill: What is the relative size of the Cineform files for archival? I can see the advantage there and perhaps monitoring playback has a better frame rate?

Mike McCarthy · January 28th, 2008, 11:54 AM

Cineform files will definitely not be smaller, but with the proper disk speed, you should be able to play back many more layers or streams at once.

Bill Ravens · January 30th, 2008, 11:53 AM

David...

I hope this question isn't too dumb for me to see the answer.
I've converted Sony EX1 files(1080p HQ) to .mxf with Sony's clip browser software. Then I ran the .mxf file thru NeoHD to get an Intermediate. If I load the .mxf and the CF Intermediate in Vegas, the .mxf shows as "progressive", and, the Intermediate shows as 1080i, even tho' I selected "Progressive" on the HDLINK Preferences page.

Am I missing something obvious?

David Newman · January 30th, 2008, 12:03 PM

I believe Vegas says all VfW sources are interlaced, even when they are progressive. I think you have ignore it.

Bill Ravens · January 30th, 2008, 12:29 PM

ah....thanx

John Hewat · February 2nd, 2008, 07:42 PM

I've only just noticed that converting EX1 MP4s to Cineform AVIs in HD Link is producing clips that are about 3 frames shorter than the original MP4s.

Is this happening to anyone else?

I've attached a screenshot from within CS3 to show the difference between each of the MP4s and their equivalent AVIs.

In every case, the duration is less for the AVIs than for the MP4s.

I am wondering:
a) Why?
b) How? As in, is it simply removing three frames from the beginning or end or are they missing from the middle somewhere or are some of them blended?

I have also noticed that in the tab that lists all this information, the Media End and Media Duration figure should be identical, since all the timecodes start at 0:00:00, but they are also different from each other in every case, whether it's AVI or MP4. How can that be?

David Newman · February 2nd, 2008, 11:28 PM

We transcode all the frames that are decoded from the MPEG Decoder we use. If any frames aren't converted they would on the end, possibly from an incomplete GOP. Media End and Media Duration are not suppose to be the same as Media End is an inclusive frame (not an out time in the EDL sense: Duration = End - Start + 1.) It is Premiere that reports this, not CineForm as personal refer an exclusive out time.

Nelson Maldonado · February 6th, 2008, 12:57 PM

Mr. Newman,

I'm looking to set up a HD workflow that includes live HD SDI capture for a dance show.

I have two Premiere CS3 NLE PC's, one with a scsi raid0 and one with a sata raid0 array. I am thinking of using either the Canon H1 or the Sony EX1 cameras.

From your posts,you indicate that a camera SDI out to AJA Xena SDI card with Prospect HD using HDLink would be a good set up for realtime or live HD capture as well as editing with Premiere CS3.

My question is, which of the Xena HD SDI cards would be most appropriate for a system that is capturing HD SDI from either the H1 or EX1 into a PC with Premiere CS3?

All of the Xena cards (PCIe or PCI) appear to work with Premiere CS3 except the HS card which appears to support only Premiere Pro 2.0. I'm guessing from research that either the 2K or LH cards will do and most probably the 2K card if i don't want or need to support any legacy analog devices.

BTW, from the threads i have read, you are most generous in jumping in to help out those in need.

regards,

Mike McCarthy · February 6th, 2008, 03:10 PM

We use the LH and LHe cards successfully with Cineform. I don't believe the 2K/2Ke is fully supported.

David Taylor · February 6th, 2008, 06:11 PM

Mike is correct. Choose either the LH or LHe card. We've intended to support the 2K card for a while but it hasn't made it to the top of the list yet.

January 27th, 2008, 12:04 AM	#137
Michael H. Stevens Major Player Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Palm Desert, California Posts: 311	No Need for Cineform with EX1? I was about to update my NEO HDV (which I haven't even used yet) to NEO HD to use with Vegas 8 with my new EX1 capturing 1920x1080P, and over on the Vegas forum I'm hearing that NEO is not needed, or is of only limited use, for the EX1 as long as the computer is current. Can someone explain why I am hearing this or counter if you don't agree. Mike

January 27th, 2008, 01:08 AM	#138
Carl Middleton Major Player Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Fernandina Beach, FL Posts: 562	It depends on if you're talking Neo HDV or Neo HD. Please doublecheck the specs (as I use Aspect, not Neo) but I believe Neo HD is 10 bit color as opposed to 8 bit, which would help with multigenerational workflows and heavy correction or compositing work. It's also great for keeping a visually lossless master copy. Also, the framerate and resize tools in HDLink are very handy! Carl __________________ Carl Middleton Whizkid Mediaworks

January 28th, 2008, 11:54 AM	#142
Mike McCarthy Major Player Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: Northern California Posts: 517	Cineform files will definitely not be smaller, but with the proper disk speed, you should be able to play back many more layers or streams at once. __________________ For more information on these topics, check out my tech website at www.hd4pc.com

January 30th, 2008, 11:53 AM	#143
Bill Ravens Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: santa fe, nm Posts: 3,264 Images: 10	NeoHD takes EX1 Progressive and makes Interlaced David... I hope this question isn't too dumb for me to see the answer. I've converted Sony EX1 files(1080p HQ) to .mxf with Sony's clip browser software. Then I ran the .mxf file thru NeoHD to get an Intermediate. If I load the .mxf and the CF Intermediate in Vegas, the .mxf shows as "progressive", and, the Intermediate shows as 1080i, even tho' I selected "Progressive" on the HDLINK Preferences page. Am I missing something obvious?

January 30th, 2008, 12:03 PM	#144
David Newman CTO, CineForm Inc. Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Cardiff-by-the-Sea, California Posts: 8,095	I believe Vegas says all VfW sources are interlaced, even when they are progressive. I think you have ignore it. __________________ David Newman -- web: www.gopro.com blog: cineform.blogspot.com -- twitter: twitter.com/David_Newman

January 22nd, 2008, 02:28 AM	#136
Johnnie Behiri Regular Crew Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Vienna/Austria Posts: 187	Thank you David. All was send to support. BTW, it will be nice to be able to install HDlink as a separate program. Sometimes, a second computer just for converting files, will not have the Premiere installed.

January 27th, 2008, 08:34 AM	#139
Michael H. Stevens Major Player Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Palm Desert, California Posts: 311	Carl: Neo HDV is 8 bit and Neo HD is 10 bit but that is not the point. The point is with the EX1 (.mfx file codec) with a good processor some say you don't need Cineform at all because the codec is so much more efficient than HDV.

January 27th, 2008, 09:39 AM	#140
Bill Ravens Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: santa fe, nm Posts: 3,264 Images: 10	I agree with Carl. Even if one doesn't need Neo HD to load EX1 mxf files on the Vegas timeline, Neo HD makes an excellent intermediate or archival format.

January 27th, 2008, 11:53 AM	#141
Michael H. Stevens Major Player Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Palm Desert, California Posts: 311	Bill: What is the relative size of the Cineform files for archival? I can see the advantage there and perhaps monitoring playback has a better frame rate?

January 30th, 2008, 12:29 PM	#145
Bill Ravens Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: santa fe, nm Posts: 3,264 Images: 10	ah....thanx

February 2nd, 2008, 07:42 PM	#146
John Hewat Major Player Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Melbourne, AUSTRALIA Posts: 735	Clip length changes in HD Link I've only just noticed that converting EX1 MP4s to Cineform AVIs in HD Link is producing clips that are about 3 frames shorter than the original MP4s. Is this happening to anyone else? I've attached a screenshot from within CS3 to show the difference between each of the MP4s and their equivalent AVIs. In every case, the duration is less for the AVIs than for the MP4s. I am wondering: a) Why? b) How? As in, is it simply removing three frames from the beginning or end or are they missing from the middle somewhere or are some of them blended? I have also noticed that in the tab that lists all this information, the Media End and Media Duration figure should be identical, since all the timecodes start at 0:00:00, but they are also different from each other in every case, whether it's AVI or MP4. How can that be? Attached Thumbnails __________________ John Hewat Mammoth Media Productions

February 2nd, 2008, 11:28 PM	#147
David Newman CTO, CineForm Inc. Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Cardiff-by-the-Sea, California Posts: 8,095	We transcode all the frames that are decoded from the MPEG Decoder we use. If any frames aren't converted they would on the end, possibly from an incomplete GOP. Media End and Media Duration are not suppose to be the same as Media End is an inclusive frame (not an out time in the EDL sense: Duration = End - Start + 1.) It is Premiere that reports this, not CineForm as personal refer an exclusive out time. __________________ David Newman -- web: www.gopro.com blog: cineform.blogspot.com -- twitter: twitter.com/David_Newman

February 6th, 2008, 12:57 PM	#148
Nelson Maldonado Regular Crew Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: Canton, Michigan, USA Posts: 50	Mr. Newman, I'm looking to set up a HD workflow that includes live HD SDI capture for a dance show. I have two Premiere CS3 NLE PC's, one with a scsi raid0 and one with a sata raid0 array. I am thinking of using either the Canon H1 or the Sony EX1 cameras. From your posts,you indicate that a camera SDI out to AJA Xena SDI card with Prospect HD using HDLink would be a good set up for realtime or live HD capture as well as editing with Premiere CS3. My question is, which of the Xena HD SDI cards would be most appropriate for a system that is capturing HD SDI from either the H1 or EX1 into a PC with Premiere CS3? All of the Xena cards (PCIe or PCI) appear to work with Premiere CS3 except the HS card which appears to support only Premiere Pro 2.0. I'm guessing from research that either the 2K or LH cards will do and most probably the 2K card if i don't want or need to support any legacy analog devices. BTW, from the threads i have read, you are most generous in jumping in to help out those in need. regards,

February 6th, 2008, 03:10 PM	#149
Mike McCarthy Major Player Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: Northern California Posts: 517	We use the LH and LHe cards successfully with Cineform. I don't believe the 2K/2Ke is fully supported. __________________ For more information on these topics, check out my tech website at www.hd4pc.com

February 6th, 2008, 06:11 PM	#150
David Taylor Major Player Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Solana Beach, CA Posts: 853	Mike is correct. Choose either the LH or LHe card. We've intended to support the 2K card for a while but it hasn't made it to the top of the list yet.