CineForm HDMI Recorder Concept Posted

[Michael Young]

Originally Posted by Jim Andrada

Does the refrigerator light REALLY go out?

Yes it does! :) If you need proof, stick your camera in there and record yourself closing the door. As a joke, I did do it once.

If I understood your post, the camera does not sense video in M2T, but in full HD 4:2:2, and then that is compressed to M2T which is the HDV 4:2:0 60i. I believe the audio does not as nicely bypass the audio compression. I can understand not having pro audio jacks at all and force me to use the XLRs on the camera, but if CineForm is going to have audio anyway, why not have pro audio interfaces? Isn’t the whole point about quality capture? Then why not quality audio capture?

If the refrigerator light does not go out, then it is the “audio” that comes into question. Does cameras like the V1U compress or pick up any extra noise by using the camera’s on board XLRs. If yes, then the CineForm product should be helping fix that was well while fixing the whole HDMI workflow.

Of course I am assuming that CineForm’s purpose is to make HDMI and HDV have an easy workflow but then we should overcome all of HDMI and HDV’s problems. Bypass all compression, audio and video and store that information in an easily accessible way.

(As much as I am un-thrilled with CineForm’s codec, I really hate M2T so much more to the point of disgust.) I mention HDV since that is where HDMI can really shine since higher HD cameras already have an established workflow.

M

[Jim Andrada]

But of course it will go out if it knows that someone or something is watching!

The question is whether it will go out if theere is nothing to observe the event! Or is the light secretly waiting for us all to go away and forget about it so it can turn on and feast on our electricity.

We could probably do a full length feature about the secret life of the refrigerator lamp! Obedient by day, a wild thing by night, lurking and feigning off-ness to reassure us, then springing back to malicious on-ness when we turn our backs.

Who knows what evil lurks behind the refrigerator door!

OK back to Cineform recorder speak!

[Bill Ravens]

XLR jacks are nice, but, they do consume a fair bit of real estate. For those who must have XLR, there are a number of places that will sell you an 12" cable with XLR female on one end and RCA male on the other end. 12" of unbalanced line isn't gonna hurt your audio and might even help it by preventing ground loops.

[Alexander Ibrahim]

Originally Posted by Alex Raskin

As to which connectors - sure XLRs are great, but realistically I just don't know if even mini-XLRs can be fitted in the box's size, and how will that impact the economics. I'd still settle for the RCA's at least.

Mini XLR is about the same size as an S-Video port.

I think they are the way to go. It'll keep the size down and solve a lot of audio problems.

[David Taylor]

Originally Posted by Michael Young

Yes it does! :) Of course I am assuming that CineForm’s purpose is to make HDMI and HDV have an easy workflow but then we should overcome all of HDMI and HDV’s problems. Bypass all compression, audio and video and store that information in an easily accessible way.

(As much as I am un-thrilled with CineForm’s codec, I really hate M2T so much more to the point of disgust.)

Michael, for most of our customers, CineForm overcomes the problems of HDV in a substantial way as it relates to visual fidelity and post workflow. Similarly, CineForm helps overcome the obstacles of uncompressed workflows, which have a different set of issues, with no visual degradation. Face it, compressed workflow are a reality, and they are the future, especially as spatial resolutions zoom upwards to 4K - it's not really practical any other way except for the highest (price) end workflow.

Is there a visual disadvantage using a compressed CineForm workflow? The answer is no, at least not in our analysis, which has been both qualitative and quantitave - theatrical film prints made from CineForm files, and PSNR analysis that shows CineForm compression exceeds the PSNR of the respected HDCam SR format.

As we've discussed earlier in this thread, it seems you prefer an uncompressed recorder and workflow, and we absolutely respect that, but that's not what we're planning to build. And I am perplexed about why you're "un-thrilled" with our codec as I think you're in a relative minority.

[Jim Andrada]

OK, enough talk! When can we order one!!!!!

[Steven Thomas]

Don't make us beg guys, SDI, SDI...please.... LOL

[Joseph H. Moore]

Component and SDI don't seem to be appropriate for this particular product, IMHO.

COMPONENT: Adding analog to digital conversion will up the dev time, the complexity and the price of the product. I envision a forward looking product positioned to capitalize on the fact that more and more, "consumer" camcorders (like the HV20) will house high quality sensors that are crippled by aged, consumer codecs (MPEG) and antiquated recording technologies (tape.)

SDI: If you're buying a camera that offers SDI, then you're likely capable of procuring recording solutions that are priced out of anything I'm envisioning.

An small, cheap, rugged HDMI recorder using a modern codec, file-based workflow. That is the simple, inexpensive product that will sell in droves to indie-filmmakers and curious prosumers.

[Alexander Ibrahim]

Originally Posted by Steven Thomas

Don't make us beg guys, SDI, SDI...please.... LOL

Well, I think that they are planning an SDI version... but that it won't be what comes out of the labs first.

From the responses here though an HD-SDI to Cineform recorder is the product that is in desperate demand- more so than the HDMI device.

[Alex Raskin]

Originally Posted by Joseph H. Moore

Component and SDI don't seem to be appropriate for this particular product, IMHO.

COMPONENT: Adding analog to digital conversion will up the dev time, the complexity and the price of the product. I envision a forward looking product positioned to capitalize on the fact that more and more, "consumer" camcorders (like the HV20) will house high quality sensors that are crippled by aged, consumer codecs (MPEG) and antiquated recording technologies (tape.)

SDI: If you're buying a camera that offers SDI, then you're likely capable of procuring recording solutions that are priced out of anything I'm envisioning.

An small, cheap, rugged HDMI recorder using a modern codec, file-based workflow. That is the simple, inexpensive product that will sell in droves to indie-filmmakers and curious prosumers.

Bingo.

Just look at Intensity card: they have 2 versions... one HDMI only, another HDMI+Component, at higher cost...

That's exactly the model for the Cineform box, IMHO... base model HDMI video + analog audio; upgraded model HDMI + Component video I/O + analog audio.

Honestly, I don't understand why SDI folks are insisting on that option.

Small Convergent nanoView box does HD-SDI -> HDMI for less than $350, as far as I understand. Do you expect that adding HD-SDI option to the Cineform box will cost much less?

Also, let's remember here that Cineform box covers (ok, will cover when it stops being a vaporware) a very specific market: semi-pros with good HDMI cams that want to avoid horrors of low-bitrate mpeg compression, while utilizing the wonderful (I mean it) Cineform codec.

I do it now with a 40Lb custom PC that houses Intensity card. I'd rather have a Cineform box of course.

[Mike A. Jones]

Originally Posted by Alexander Ibrahim

Well, I think that they are planning an SDI version... but that it won't be what comes out of the labs first.

From the responses here though an HD-SDI to Cineform recorder is the product that is in desperate demand- more so than the HDMI device.

If you can afford an SDI-enabled camera, you are well outside the demographic of serious--and seriously budget-constrained--indie filmmakers and prosumers who appear to have been the inspiration for this product, at least in its first iteration. Don't co-opt our fifteen minutes of patiently awaited recognition when there already numerous reduced-compression recording options available within your price range, but none in ours!

I am so grateful to Cineform for what they are attempting here... And, as Canon did with the HV20, for recognizing that there is a highly neglected yet very legitimate, eager, and (let's admit it) demanding segment of the market buried between the opposing extremes of average consumers and film & broadcast professionals. In the world of media and culture, the distinction between the "moneyed elites" and the rest of us is growing ever more faint--a trend which I believe, on whole, will be to the benefit of media and culture for elites and everymans alike--and we have innovators like Cineform to thank for this.

So, to everyone at Cineform, I have nothing but praise and thanks and this one humble request: an optional accessory-shoe-to-tripod-screw adapter for mounting atop my HV20!

[James Huenergardt]

I think SDI is affordable at $6,500 with the new Sony XDCam EX1.

Affordable is also a VERY relative term.

I can't afford a $10,000+ box that does SDI, but I could afford a $3,000+ ish box that records Cineform intermediate.

Purchasing an additional conversion box to drag along with the Cineform box defeats the purpose of being very easy to use and portable.

I want something I can hook on my rail system or whatever, and record Cineform right to compact flash cards. Hopefully there will be at least 2 cards, not just one.

Looking forward to whatever SDI box Cineform comes up with.

Jim

[Sean Worsell]

I am VERY interested in something like this for an HV20 set-up. And I knew it was must a matter of months before some smart, entrepreneurial folks took it on. Right on Cineform! You guys rock.

[Mike McCarthy]

An HDMI input would seem to be in Cineform's best interest, in that there is currently no competition in that market. There are other SDI options, and SDI can easily be converted to HDMI. The only HDMI device to come close would be a BMD Intensity in a Magma box AND a Laptop. One thing I would recommend to really push the limits, would be for Cineform to support HDMI Deep Color in their box, to record 10bit or 12bit color, once cameras begin to support it.
I offer this advice as one who has two SDI cameras and zero HDMI cameras. HDMI just makes better business sense for a product like this. To cater to the SDI crowd, they could offer a DC output to power a separate SDI to HDMI adaptor off the same battery system. (Strap a BMD HDLink to the side)

[Per Johan Naesje]

Originally Posted by Joseph H. Moore

SDI: If you're buying a camera that offers SDI, then you're likely capable of procuring recording solutions that are priced out of anything I'm envisioning.

Wrong (read my response below!)

Originally Posted by Alex Raskin

Honestly, I don't understand why SDI folks are insisting on that option.

If you define SDI folks as one unit with the same requirements your are wrong!

Originally Posted by Mike A. Jones

If you can afford an SDI-enabled camera, you are well outside the demographic of serious--and seriously budget-constrained--indie filmmakers and prosumers who appear to have been the inspiration for this product, at least in its first iteration.

Wrong again!
You folks asuming that people who buy a SDI enabled camcorder works like professionals in environments with big budgets and resources. Myself is a indie wildlifephotographer, who works alone out in the field with I think less money and resources than you guys!
The main reason I bought this camcorder the Canon XLH1 is for it's interchangeable lenses, but also good quality on optics etc...
There is no way that I can afford nor take with me any stationary SDI storage equipment.

Originally Posted by Mike A. Jones

Don't co-opt our fifteen minutes of patiently awaited recognition when there already numerous reduced-compression recording options available within your price range, but none in ours!

Enlighten me please !?