CineForm HDMI Recorder Concept Posted

[Michael Young]

Originally Posted by Jason Rodriguez

Is the issue the actual XLR connectors themselves or the issue of balanced audio inputs vs. unbalanced audio?

XLR's are pretty big . . . other connectors could be suited to work if the issue is mainly having balanced audio inputs over unbalanced.

I think the question is "Who is the target group?"

At 2k, I would think professionals are the target group and they normally use XLR. So do you want to make the pro people use adapters or the budget people use adapters?

In my bag of audio cables, 99% are XLRs.

As far as the screen, one should be included, but not for a primary viewing purposes, it should be for menus. If you can also view the video, fine, but that is just "feature-itous" as it was said before. I also prefer actual tactile buttons so that when in the field, I can use the device without ruining or getting dirty the screen.

I agree with one statement, address the main need, not every possible scenerio. Then you would end up with an AJA IO HD, which I already do not want. (I so not need all those connectors, such a big box, and then no HDD...) I do actually prefer ProRes422 over Cineform, (Still testing) but the conceptual design of CineForm is way way super way better.

[David Newman]

My guess is a more costly HDSDI unit will have XLR, and a HDMI will have RCA, mini-jacks, or no analog audio. An XLR equipped camera like the V1U or upcoming HVR-Z7U, that have HDMI, can use the camera to feed XLR signals through HDMI. Then the device capture pure digital, simplifing the design. I feel most users will not greatly miss XLR external audio for this market. Additional audio is a form of feature-itous, but still add important one -- that why it is in the base design at least in some form. Full size XLR connectors would have more impact on the physical design than almost any other element, which is the other factor to consider.

[Jim Andrada]

I think using menus in the field is much harder than buttons because you have to actually look at the unit.

I also think touch screen is at best OK - I use an iPhone and while they've done reasonably well with the soft keys, a few strategic buttons would be nice. Very nice!

I think people who are really serious about the sound want to keep it out of the camera as much as possible so picking up the sound from the camera would mean that for all intents and purposes there wouldn't be much use for the sound in the new box except reference for post. I rarely ever run a mic into the camera if I can avoid it

On the other hand, if you're already using dual system sound, then I guess it doesn't much matter what kind of analog sound this new box has as people will still use their SD 7XX or whatever, so RCA would be OK.

I think I'd prefer not to have a screen so I'd have more real estate to which I could velcro a couple of 2 1/2" hard drives!

[Theodore McNeil]

David,

Not much to add other than to say this is a brilliant concept. The LCD monitor is genius. I'm mostly in one man band situations and 90% of the time I just can't carry or have the time to set up a field monitor. I just want to be able simply monitor or play back what's on the hard-drive. This machine will elegantly solve that problem.

And it's going to be the hdmi or hd/sdi made by cineform with their own codec... I'm like Homer looking at donut.

This could be the iPod of the indy production world. Well done.

[Jim Andrada]

I just thought of another reason why component in is a great idea. I could use the box with my SD camera as well. (Yes??? No???)

Then I have just one workflow to worry about as everything is in Cineform.

Just one question - when can I order one? Are you taking pre-orders (hopefully at a slight or not so slight discount!). Let me know where to send the check and it will be in the mail.

[Alexander Ibrahim]

Originally Posted by David Newman

My guess is a more costly HDSDI unit will have XLR, and a HDMI will have RCA, mini-jacks, or no analog audio. An XLR equipped camera like the V1U or upcoming HVR-Z7U, that have HDMI, can use the camera to feed XLR signals through HDMI. Then the device capture pure digital, simplifing the design. I feel most users will not greatly miss XLR external audio for this market. Additional audio is a form of feature-itous, but still add important one -- that why it is in the base design at least in some form. Full size XLR connectors would have more impact on the physical design than almost any other element, which is the other factor to consider.

If you are going to include analog audio don't mess around, it has to be XLR.

Think about it a $2000 USD device that is intended to upgrade a 4:2:0 8 bit camera to 10 bit 4:2:2.

The people who understand what that means won't want to use RCA for production audio- except maybe for low end confidence monitoring. I suppose those who plan on using his as a playback/presentation device might use RCA outputs sometimes.

If you want audio i/o then do it it right- otherwise its better if you just don't do it at all.

So... I suggest Mini XLR. You get the technical benefits of XLR, including a positive lock connector. You get a small size. You can convert it to full size XLR or RCA readily.

I suggest place two 3 pin females on the chassis,

http://www.futurlec.com/XLR-MiniXLR.shtml

Then include two cables like these in the box:

http://best-tronics.com/mm5/merchant...Yes&Quantity=1

and finally throw two adaptors like these in the box too:
http://earthshakingmusic.com/GXM-133.html

All of the benefits of XLR and a connector that is about the size of RCA, with positive locking.

Again, if you can't make XLR work, then don't bother with analog i/o on this unit.

[Alexander Ibrahim]

Originally Posted by Jim Andrada

I think I'd prefer not to have a screen so I'd have more real estate to which I could velcro a couple of 2 1/2" hard drives!

No way... if that is going to be a major way end users are going to use the product then design a real solution.

Maybe a "snap on" enclosure for the drives. Include cable management.

Sell it separately, and without drives.

Let users buy them from you machined to match the main unit.. and then add their own drives.

[Alexander Ibrahim]

Originally Posted by Mike McCarthy

For the record, the AJA IOHD does ONLY use ProRes. It does not support uncompressed HD (FW800). Only the Kona/Xena cards do. Big difference. Uncompressed would be unfeasible for this device due to the high disk datarate it would require.

It won't do uncompressed... because that requires too much bandwidth.

I think it always sends ProRes down the wire to the Mac in HD. I think it will send SD signals down the wire uncompressed.

You can still capture any format you like. The ioHD will send ProRes down the line, then you can actually use the Mac to record whatever format it can handle in software. So, if ProRes is coming in, nothing is stopping you from transcoding that to DVCPRO HD- except your Mac's processing resources.

Of course this all means you have a Mac... and you bought a $3500 piece of hardware that only works with the Mac... so you might as well stay in ProRes to edit on your Mac which should have Final Cut on it.

I'd only transcode to some other format in this workflow if diskspace was VERY scarce. Then I might choose to drop down to DVCPRO HD or the like.

The point remains that unless your a Mac editor who is fundamentally happy with ProRes, then AJA ioHD is a bad choice.

You'd be better off with some other solution

Like perhaps the Cineform gadget, we are all here to discuss.

[Alexander Ibrahim]

Originally Posted by David Newman

My guess is a more costly HDSDI unit will have XLR

Sorry to reply to you twice, but I am eager to talk about this HD SDI unit. I am more likely to buy and use that than the "low end" HDMI unit.

First off, I think miniXLR is still the way to go. The form factor is just too good for this type of product.

Secondly what i/o

I'd like to see HD SDI single link in, HD SDI out. Let the device use the HD SDI output as another HD SDI input for a dual link application for those few with cameras that can output 4:4:4.

I'd like a BNC connector that could swap between the following:
1) TC IN
2) TC OUT
3) Reference Input for: Black, Composite Sync, Tri Level Sync

I want to see HDMI in and out.

Two Mini XLR in and two dedicated Mini XLR outs.

I'd also want two Compact Flash slots minimum.

an eSATA port would be nice, as would USB and Firewire. all should be able to connect external storage.

Both the USB and Firewire should allow the device to connect to a computer and allow the following:

1) let the computer mount all the media attached to the device
2) let the computer control the device
3) let the computer capture directly from the encoders on the device.
4) firmware upgrades

OK that's twelve connectors and two CF slots.

Do you think that can all be done in a package the size of a desktop DVD drive or smaller? I'd love a package the size of a Betcam small cassette.

[Marcelo Arend]

I found this link yesterday:

http://www.convergent-design.com/dow...0and%20FAQ.pdf

http://www.convergent-design.com/

Flash XDR : The First CompactFlash Based HD XStream Data Recorder

Features
• HD-SDI ↔ 25, 35, 50, 100 Mbps MPEG2 (Long-GOP)
• Also supports MPEG2 4:2:2 @ 160 Mbps (I-Frame)
• 1080i, 720p, 1080p24
• HD-SDI ↔ ASI (19.7 Mbps) for satellite up/down-link
• Embedded or External Audio, Time-Code inputs
• Record trigger input, tally light output
• Four Hot-Swappable CompactFlash Card Slots
• Enables File-Based transfers, 2x-6x real-time
• Rugged, solid-state; silent operation
• Compact, Ultra-Portable, under 1kg

PRICE ==> US $4995

[Lauri Kettunen]

One simple practical thing came into mind. In my experience it is important that such a device has proper cover which can be fixed easily on the camera, tripod etc. Say, if one has the XL H1 and the external battery holder on belt, then another device on the belt to store the video signal means another cord. If one also needs an external amplifier for audio, then it becomes already rather messy with all the devices and cords hanging around the camera implying a risk to stumble when the system has to be moved.

[Alex Raskin]

Sound creates *more* impact on the movie viewer than visuals.

(As much as we don't want to believe it... it's true.)

That's why noisy way of feeding the sound through the camera into HDMI is not good - both the noise and distortion levels are too bad.

Camera manufacturers do it on purpose, so people could not use a $4K camera instead of professional $25K (SD) / $90K (HD) one.

So for serious sound, we use double system with external preamp and recorder - but it is not sync'd with video at the time of recording, and requires huge post-production time to sync it.

That same audio fed into Cineform box over the analog audio in, multiplexed by Cineform to the HDMI-fed video, would immediately solve the problem.

Since we are at the spec stage, I have to positively insist that the Cineform box *has* to have analog audio In with all versions.

As to which connectors - sure XLRs are great, but realistically I just don't know if even mini-XLRs can be fitted in the box's size, and how will that impact the economics. I'd still settle for the RCA's at least.

I think, it is more important for the Cineform box to have a very low noise, low distortion A/D converter, and ability to multiplex that analog signal to HDMI video on-the-fly in sync.

If XLRs *can* be fitted and afforded, then of course that'd be the best. But *at least* have RCA's and *analog audio in* on all versions! (Alex is making a poster and plans on demonstrating outside of the Cineform headquarters :)

[Stephen Armour]

As much as I hate dongles, they are much to be prefered in this type of situation. When your input device is not appropriate as the mounting surface for such large connectors as XLR (both 3-pin audio and 4-pin power), IMO you're much better off suffering with a dongle than not having those important and needed features, or down-grading them.

One advantage with the dongle, is that if you do not need audio i/o, only the SDI or HDMI connection is needed and the dongle could be removed.

I agree, the mid-range model for pro's, needs balanced audio i/o. Video signal verification is necessary for sure, but as was observed, the video is merely for that. A "freebie" actually adding to the overall usefulness.

[Per Johan Naesje]

David,
this is good news for a rocky indian wildlifefilmer and there are lots of us out there! I'm using the Canon XLH1 camcorder and are forced to use tapes and HDV today.
The XLH1 has its HD-SDI slot just sitting there and it's not any HD 4.2.2 solution out there today which is both light and who need only battery-power, for us to use a long way from the nearest power socket.

I will gladly sign up as a beta-tester if you need someone who can bring your product to unreachable places, in cold and wet surroundings.

[Jack Zhang]

I request a real-time in-box framerate converter (60i-24p) for the second generation of this recorder.

And a 1080i to 720p60 conversion mode is also a request to make ease of editing in that workflow and lessening render times.