CineForm HDMI Recorder Concept Posted

Bill Koehler · July 7th, 2008, 06:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Elliott Tucker

The Edirol does not have HDMI which puzzles me. But I really want the Cineform capability.

No surprise. It makes no bones about what it is. A FireWire DV/HDV to Hard Disk Drive Recorder.
It does not have any kind of compression engine of its own.
It is simply stripping out the Compressed Video+Audio stream and recording that to disk.

What was most interesting to me was that they use NTFS for the file system.
FAT32 is nowhere to be seen. So the old file size limitations that everyone loves to hate are gone.

How does the file system choice affect Mac users?

Alex Raskin · July 16th, 2008, 01:36 PM

Need to shoot tomorrow? Get this one:

http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthrea...253#post908253

(shameless plug, I know... relevant to the Cineform topic though :)

Brent Graham · July 22nd, 2008, 06:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brent Graham

So....

Would something like this work?

Is this the price range we'd be looking at for a converter?!

If so, that's great, I was thinking it was much more intensive/expensive.

http://store.customcableconnection.com/hdmc-spdif.html

http://www.pccables.com/cgi-bin/orde...&rsite=f.85506

Never heard an answer on this. Any ideas?

Alex Raskin · August 21st, 2008, 09:43 AM

A couple of thoughts on Cineform recorder.

- HD-SDI: I now think that, Sony Ex1 being already ubiquitous and affordable at low price, and generating full-raster 1920x1080 output... the base configuration of the CFHD recorder should probably be oriented onto that camera and have HD-SDI input standard. People with HDMI cams can get HDMI->HD-SDI converters?

- Separate audio inputs: again, EX1 turned out to have a fantastic quality audio - a real breakthrough, so there's no need to have a separate analog audio bus in CFHD recorder anymore, I think.

- Batteries: how about go independent from the camera type/battery type/connector type... and have an internal rechargeable battery. Or maybe use 4 rechargeable AAs. Wireless mics use the same approach, why not this recorder. Feasible, given the device's power consumption and anticipated run on a single charge?

Fredrik-Larsson · August 21st, 2008, 10:01 AM

It should address the needs of uncompressed, HDMI and HD-SDI me thinks... The more different inputs they have the more devices they will sell. If it's not included in the recorder they should at least recommend boxes that run on batteries that gives you alternative options. I am quite sure there were a HD-SDI to HDMI converter mentioned in this thread.

Seperate audio inputs isn't required but again it will give more options for the end user and I would love to have 4 channel audio recording. I already uses that with an external recorder but integrated with video it would rock. I seriously doubt that audio recording would be a huge expense to the final package. High quality AD-converters seem to be very cheap.

Well, the batteries must be replacable in some way since on the field you might not have the time to recharge. But there are several batteries out there so no need to re-invent that. I am not sure 4 AA would work. My audiorecorder uses 8 and a couple of hours shooting will eat them up. I think that video encoding to Cineform intermediate will require more power.

But it would be nice to receive and update of how it's going.... Cineform??? :)

David Taylor · August 21st, 2008, 11:27 AM

Alex / Fredrik - good comments. Thank you.

Elliott Tucker · September 3rd, 2008, 01:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fredrik-Larsson

... it would be nice to receive and update of how it's going.... Cineform??? :)

CINEFORM: Have you resumed dedicated work on this project? Status update info would be appreciated. Thanks.

Bill Koehler · September 24th, 2008, 05:48 PM

I suspect what Cineform found is also why direct to disk/flash recorders are so expensive.
Everybody has their pet list of requirements, HDMI/Component/HD-SDI/XLR/RCA/2 channel/4 channel/playback/pass through/headphone plug/flip/screen/no screen..........
So they bring it to market and right away a bunch of folks are ticked off because their requirements didn't make it.

And at the end of the day, it would sell for very limited volumes.
Most of the folks who would buy it are right here on this forum, or ones similar to it, if that is possible.

And once many folks saw what it cost, they would go pick up a Sony DR-60 or CompactFlash HDV recorder I suspect.
I see the DR-60 is available for ~$1400.
About Cineforms target price, I believe.

Alex Raskin · September 24th, 2008, 06:03 PM

Nothing else records in Cineform Prospect HD codec natively.

Which means, NO conversions/transcoding before you edit, with Cineform recorder. At least on PC side, I think there's no contest to Cineform workflow, as it simply affords the best quality at the lowest disk space requirements, plus real-time playback in Premiere.

Granted, Cineform's recorder doesn't do it either, since it hasn't been manufactured yet :)

But hopefully it will... the sooner the better.

David Newman · September 25th, 2008, 08:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alex Raskin

Nothing else records in Cineform Prospect HD codec natively.

Not quite. The three models of Wafian recorders all use CineForm Intermediate natively (4:2:2 and 4:4:4), and the Silicon Imaging SI-2K uses CineForm RAW natively. We just working to add to this line-up.

Alex Raskin · September 25th, 2008, 09:20 AM

I've commented on flash-memory camera-mounted recorders. Sorry if I was unclear.

Bill Koehler · September 26th, 2008, 06:47 PM

Sorry to have annoyed you, Alex.
My comments were not meant as a slam against the technical goodness of Cineform.
Strictly the technical problems and business case of bringing this product to market.

Actually, I'm just glad to have gotten a response from Mr. David Newman.
I thread still being monitored (your time is valuable) means a product still in the pipeline?

Alexander Ibrahim · September 26th, 2008, 08:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bill Koehler

Strictly the technical problems and business case of bringing this product to market.

Speaking of the problems getting this to market and desired configurations....

I was thinking about audio inputs.

They aren't really needed at all. I was one of the ones out here arguing for XLR (specifically miniXLR) but that just isn't necessary.

Most cameras today offer either SDI or HDMI outputs... both of which have high quality embedded multitrack audio.

Most cameras used for "high end" production that really warrants use of a codec like Cineform have audio inputs. Almost regardless of the quality, that is good enough.

Most should be using a field mixer of some sort. The outputs of that can be converted down to RCA or even mini stereo (headset type) jacks if need be, and most support two channels of XLR out.

For those of use who have complicated location audio needs, I suggest dual system recording.

I suggest the following I/O for Cineform's SOLID:

HD/SD SDI (in/out based on SOLID's operating mode)
One HDMI 1.3 for input to the system.

Obviously only one of the video inputs needs to be active at a time.

One HDMI 1.3 for passthrough monitoring while recording.
Headset (1/4" stereo TRS or 1/8" stereo mini jack)
Mic (1/8" stereo mini jack, for those few who really have no audio inputs on their cameras)
There should also be a small cellphone type microphone for "mutter tracks."

Now... that's one device that should be able to service 90% of the market.

Coupled with two CF card slots and a USB 2 (or 3 if it shows up later than I hope for) port.

There should be a "confidence" LCD, so you know its working and so you can set it up. I'd like some actual physical button transport controls.

If you want to get needlessly fancy, then some sort of remote control with some extra dedicated buttons and a jog shuttle would be nice. Make it an optional device, connect it via the USB port.

What about Dual Link SDI 4:4:4 ?

Show me a camera cheaper than RED that supports that? Heck other than RED show me a camera under 90K USD that supports that? Its just too niche. Make a separate device and charge a premium if the market wants it.

I promise to buy one down the line when I get my dual link SDI camera, as it is though cashflow keeps pushing that EX3 out on my purchase horizon.

Alex Raskin · September 26th, 2008, 08:10 PM

Ditto on HD-SDI in, and no compulsory analog audio inputs, as basic version.

This is a u-turn from what I previously thought would be necessary, based on prosumer cameras' audio specs.

But I found that EX1 actually has great mic preamps. Low noise, good fidelity.

So most of the people who shoot with it probably will be just fine feeding audio into the cam, and capturing HD-SDI video+audio out into the (eagerly awaited) Cineform recorder.

Brent Graham · October 5th, 2008, 08:27 PM

How is the development going?

Have any ideas/goals been changed?

Has the potential release date been pushed back any?

August 21st, 2008, 10:01 AM	#380
Fredrik-Larsson Major Player Join Date: May 2005 Location: Malmö, Sweden Posts: 395	It should address the needs of uncompressed, HDMI and HD-SDI me thinks... The more different inputs they have the more devices they will sell. If it's not included in the recorder they should at least recommend boxes that run on batteries that gives you alternative options. I am quite sure there were a HD-SDI to HDMI converter mentioned in this thread. Seperate audio inputs isn't required but again it will give more options for the end user and I would love to have 4 channel audio recording. I already uses that with an external recorder but integrated with video it would rock. I seriously doubt that audio recording would be a huge expense to the final package. High quality AD-converters seem to be very cheap. Well, the batteries must be replacable in some way since on the field you might not have the time to recharge. But there are several batteries out there so no need to re-invent that. I am not sure 4 AA would work. My audiorecorder uses 8 and a couple of hours shooting will eat them up. I think that video encoding to Cineform intermediate will require more power. But it would be nice to receive and update of how it's going.... Cineform??? :) __________________ The Russian Captain (upcoming feature) http://trc-movie.blogspot.com/ My movies http://www.larssonfilm.com/

September 24th, 2008, 05:48 PM	#383
Bill Koehler Major Player Join Date: May 2007 Location: Alpharetta, Georgia, USA Posts: 760	I suspect what Cineform found is also why direct to disk/flash recorders are so expensive. Everybody has their pet list of requirements, HDMI/Component/HD-SDI/XLR/RCA/2 channel/4 channel/playback/pass through/headphone plug/flip/screen/no screen.......... So they bring it to market and right away a bunch of folks are ticked off because their requirements didn't make it. And at the end of the day, it would sell for very limited volumes. Most of the folks who would buy it are right here on this forum, or ones similar to it, if that is possible. And once many folks saw what it cost, they would go pick up a Sony DR-60 or CompactFlash HDV recorder I suspect. I see the DR-60 is available for ~$1400. About Cineforms target price, I believe. Last edited by Bill Koehler; September 24th, 2008 at 05:51 PM. Reason: minor reformat.

July 16th, 2008, 01:36 PM	#377
Alex Raskin Trustee Join Date: Sep 2003 Posts: 1,435	Need to shoot tomorrow? Get this one: http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthrea...253#post908253 (shameless plug, I know... relevant to the Cineform topic though :)

August 21st, 2008, 09:43 AM	#379
Alex Raskin Trustee Join Date: Sep 2003 Posts: 1,435	A couple of thoughts on Cineform recorder. - HD-SDI: I now think that, Sony Ex1 being already ubiquitous and affordable at low price, and generating full-raster 1920x1080 output... the base configuration of the CFHD recorder should probably be oriented onto that camera and have HD-SDI input standard. People with HDMI cams can get HDMI->HD-SDI converters? - Separate audio inputs: again, EX1 turned out to have a fantastic quality audio - a real breakthrough, so there's no need to have a separate analog audio bus in CFHD recorder anymore, I think. - Batteries: how about go independent from the camera type/battery type/connector type... and have an internal rechargeable battery. Or maybe use 4 rechargeable AAs. Wireless mics use the same approach, why not this recorder. Feasible, given the device's power consumption and anticipated run on a single charge?

August 21st, 2008, 11:27 AM	#381
David Taylor Major Player Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Solana Beach, CA Posts: 853	Alex / Fredrik - good comments. Thank you.

September 24th, 2008, 06:03 PM	#384
Alex Raskin Trustee Join Date: Sep 2003 Posts: 1,435	Nothing else records in Cineform Prospect HD codec natively. Which means, NO conversions/transcoding before you edit, with Cineform recorder. At least on PC side, I think there's no contest to Cineform workflow, as it simply affords the best quality at the lowest disk space requirements, plus real-time playback in Premiere. Granted, Cineform's recorder doesn't do it either, since it hasn't been manufactured yet :) But hopefully it will... the sooner the better.

September 25th, 2008, 09:20 AM	#386
Alex Raskin Trustee Join Date: Sep 2003 Posts: 1,435	I've commented on flash-memory camera-mounted recorders. Sorry if I was unclear.

September 26th, 2008, 06:47 PM	#387
Bill Koehler Major Player Join Date: May 2007 Location: Alpharetta, Georgia, USA Posts: 760	Sorry to have annoyed you, Alex. My comments were not meant as a slam against the technical goodness of Cineform. Strictly the technical problems and business case of bringing this product to market. Actually, I'm just glad to have gotten a response from Mr. David Newman. I thread still being monitored (your time is valuable) means a product still in the pipeline?

September 26th, 2008, 08:10 PM	#389
Alex Raskin Trustee Join Date: Sep 2003 Posts: 1,435	Ditto on HD-SDI in, and no compulsory analog audio inputs, as basic version. This is a u-turn from what I previously thought would be necessary, based on prosumer cameras' audio specs. But I found that EX1 actually has great mic preamps. Low noise, good fidelity. So most of the people who shoot with it probably will be just fine feeding audio into the cam, and capturing HD-SDI video+audio out into the (eagerly awaited) Cineform recorder.

October 5th, 2008, 08:27 PM	#390
Brent Graham Major Player Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: San Antonio, Texas Posts: 222	How is the development going? Have any ideas/goals been changed? Has the potential release date been pushed back any?