Blackmagic Intensity Pro, Premier Pro, Cineform Workflow Question

Stu Minnis · November 3rd, 2007, 07:37 AM

Thanks for starting this thread, Miguel. I was considering the exact same workflow you're talking about but was also disappointed to learn that Aspect HD isn't compatible with BM output. The second it is, I'll be paying for Aspect HD.

I know this is the Cineform forum, but I feel like I should add a few points here about working without AHD and WITH BM. First, you can use Intensity to monitor a native HDV project; you don't have to capture thought Intensity's HDMI input to do it. You can set up a project in CS3 using the BM presets and then switch your capture mode in that project from Decklink to HDV. Even though you're capturing and working with MPEG2, you still get realtime HDMI monitoring out through Intensity.

Also, while I am very interested in what Aspect HD can do for my workflow, I have to say I haven't encountered the infamous glitches with HDV editing that populate so many forum discussions. I'm running CS3 on a Core2 Duo and editing native HDV, but other than long project load times for larger projects, I haven't had any significant problems...so far.

Carl Middleton · November 3rd, 2007, 10:21 AM

Stu,

The biggest difference I noticed, other than the realtime effects, was the the project load time with aspect, literally dropped from 10-15 minutes(!!!) down to about 1 minute. This is on similar projects, different episodes of the same show. :) That and if I remember right, no conforming/indexing times. Might have just been one or the other on that, tho, but a significant improvement on building the project file for large projects, shaved about half a day of building project files off my time. :)

Carl

David Newman · November 3rd, 2007, 10:27 AM

It is a speed up we don't often consider, but it is true that CineForm allows for much more complex projects (smaller memory footprint) with faster audio conform times.

Mike McCarthy · November 3rd, 2007, 12:24 PM

In my experience, Cineform files always require conforming on import, while HDV files do not. HDV files on the otherhand, require indexing, which is a much longer process, so Cineform saves time in that regard. Adobe has eliminated the need for conforming audio in most native settings, but both Cineform and Matrox files still always require conforming on my systems. Hopefully that step can be eliminated sometime in the near future.

David Newman · November 3rd, 2007, 12:43 PM

Mike, thanks for clearing up those terms.

Carl Middleton · November 3rd, 2007, 01:09 PM

Aye, I couldn't remember whether it was indexing, conforming, or both. I just remembered it being *much* faster. :)

Carl

L. Kirk Kauder · January 3rd, 2008, 06:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stu Minnis

Thanks for starting this thread, Miguel. I was considering the exact same workflow you're talking about but was also disappointed to learn that Aspect HD isn't compatible with BM output. The second it is, I'll be paying for Aspect HD.

I'm in a similar position. I just can't justify buying in yet because of the lack of monitoring (with the BM card)... but it's now a new year... maybe a hint of a solution?

I have to admit I'm spoiled with the live monitoring I now have in PPro & AE (with the BM card).
I do love the file size difference and the Cineform stuff cuts easily, but with the Aspect HD trial... I get distorted video in AE... but that's for another thread.

Just wondering when some hint of some compatibility might be raising it's shiny head? I think a lot of us on the sidelines would jump on Cineform as a solution if this doorway was opened up. I know I would be.

David Taylor · January 3rd, 2008, 07:07 PM

The "hint" is that we're actively working on integrating Blackmagic cards into the CineForm playback engine. That's a more definitive response than earlier in this thread. I don't have schedule yet - we'll keep you updated.

Also note that currently only our Prospect HD family supports HD-SDI cards for monitoring. We're considering some product lineup changes and we'll let you know if Aspect HD becomes compatible with HD-SDI (or HDMI) monitoring.

John McGinley · January 4th, 2008, 05:05 AM

I too eagerly await support for the Intensity cards.

I was so glad you guys added the monitoring window on capture. Is the plan to also allow for fullscreen monitoring through the hdmi on capture as well as supporting timeline monitoring?

L. Kirk Kauder · January 16th, 2008, 08:32 PM

Tick Tick Tick... and time marches on! (Any news?)

Luis Ignacio · January 23rd, 2008, 07:24 AM

Hi dvinfo comunity. I would like to have some tips on video monitoring for my worksation, that´s what i have.

WINXP pro sp2
Quad core 2.4
Asus P5B premium
3Gb ram
Intensity Pro
ATI sapphire X1950pro 512mb (02 DVI out and 01 S-video)
Hard disk sata02 01 system / 01 render / 01 audio / 03 or 04 raid0 for media
Monitor LG 22´ widescreen LCD 1650x1050
Next buy : cineform ProspectHD

I don´t have the system working right now, just waitting to buy the case and 2nd monitor..
My question is. What is the best way to monitor? I know that with cineform on premiere i can´t monitor over intensity pro. What about my s-video out on the ATI sapphire?could i connect a 14´CRT tv (i don´t have the money for a broadcast monitor)? or it´s better to use my second DVI-out for a FULLHD monitor (CRT or LCD)? Can i do both?.
Here in Brasil everything we do in HD for now will be downsample to SD so i need to have an interlaced CRT TV to view the result before go to DVD or tape(mini-dv,beta, dvcam).
Any tips? options? questions?

Sergio Sanchez · January 23rd, 2008, 02:39 PM

John:

In premiere i´ve never been able to monitor to my SD CRT monitor , when editing in HD. Even using the S-video out from my laptop.

But in After Effects i can do it over firewire no matter the resolution of the comp. So that the reference I use for color correcting clips, or effects when working on my house. I just use it as a second opinion, since the colorspace of the SD monitor is very different from the HD standard.

The other thing you can do, is monitor your video on a LCD monitor using the second dvi,of the video card if you calibrate it properly you will not have problems with it. You can get a monitor calibrator for a little money using a REC709 2.2 gamma ICC profile and use it for your monitor. The results will be much better than with a cheap SD monitor even it is professional.

You can even use a HDTV television, and balance it with the correct color profiling. It will give very acceptable results. You can use a DVI to HDMI convertor. I have one system working that way and it works perfect.

For me, if your not using a High End SDI output and monitor like a Sony, Cinetal or eCinema monitor, the monitoring is the same as using a good LCD. In fact sometimes I prefer to use a good HD TV than a cheap "pro" monitor. For me is a reference only, since most of the "professional" monitors, LCT, CRT´S and TV´s gives me only 8bits of color precision, so I dont trust them any way. And cheap "pro" monitors are always expensive than a good LCD monitors. You can find a pretty good LCD with much more features than a prosumer monitor for less money.

I´ve done a lot of proyects using that method and when I see the shots using the profiling in a hi-end HD-SDI monitoring, the image looks exactly the same as in my monitors. You have to use correct profiling, and trust more in your image analisys instruments than in your eye.

I´ve even done color correction for expensive productions using that method and the results are great.

If you have a little extra money you can use an EIZO Color Edge or FlexScan monitor, these are really great computer LCD monitors, they have a very wide gamut. In fact the Color Edge have the ability to adjust the gamma in hardware. If you use the correct color profile they will be the closest to a Hi-End monitor. LaCie has very good displays too.

Alex Raskin · March 10th, 2008, 10:34 PM

Panasonic BT-LH1700W as hd-sdi monitor? Probably more during acquisition than post? anyone used it?

Robin Davies-Rollinson · August 26th, 2009, 03:53 PM

Just looking for an update on this thread.
I was intending to buy the Intensity Pro card for monitoring an HD timeline from CS3.
The files would have been AVCHD material converted by Neo Scene. I have no intention of actually capturing material via the Intensity card - only monitoring via HDMI out into an HD tv.
I understand that natively captured via Firewire HDV files will play out OK, but how about the Cineform files?
Another question: How does Premiere recognise the new Intensity hardware? Is it automatically showing up in the CS3 menu? - or is there some software that comes with the card?

Many thanks in anticipation...

November 3rd, 2007, 10:27 AM	#33
David Newman CTO, CineForm Inc. Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Cardiff-by-the-Sea, California Posts: 8,095	It is a speed up we don't often consider, but it is true that CineForm allows for much more complex projects (smaller memory footprint) with faster audio conform times. __________________ David Newman -- web: www.gopro.com blog: cineform.blogspot.com -- twitter: twitter.com/David_Newman

November 3rd, 2007, 12:24 PM	#34
Mike McCarthy Major Player Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: Northern California Posts: 517	In my experience, Cineform files always require conforming on import, while HDV files do not. HDV files on the otherhand, require indexing, which is a much longer process, so Cineform saves time in that regard. Adobe has eliminated the need for conforming audio in most native settings, but both Cineform and Matrox files still always require conforming on my systems. Hopefully that step can be eliminated sometime in the near future. __________________ For more information on these topics, check out my tech website at www.hd4pc.com

November 3rd, 2007, 12:43 PM	#35
David Newman CTO, CineForm Inc. Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Cardiff-by-the-Sea, California Posts: 8,095	Mike, thanks for clearing up those terms. __________________ David Newman -- web: www.gopro.com blog: cineform.blogspot.com -- twitter: twitter.com/David_Newman

January 16th, 2008, 08:32 PM	#40
L. Kirk Kauder Regular Crew Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Sugar Land, TX USA Posts: 40	Tick Tick Tick... and time marches on! (Any news?) __________________ Kirk VideoBlanket.com

January 23rd, 2008, 07:24 AM	#41
Luis Ignacio Regular Crew Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: São Paulo - Brasil Posts: 36	Premiere CS3 Intensity PRO and Cineform Prospect HD = video monitor Hi dvinfo comunity. I would like to have some tips on video monitoring for my worksation, that´s what i have. WINXP pro sp2 Quad core 2.4 Asus P5B premium 3Gb ram Intensity Pro ATI sapphire X1950pro 512mb (02 DVI out and 01 S-video) Hard disk sata02 01 system / 01 render / 01 audio / 03 or 04 raid0 for media Monitor LG 22´ widescreen LCD 1650x1050 Next buy : cineform ProspectHD I don´t have the system working right now, just waitting to buy the case and 2nd monitor.. My question is. What is the best way to monitor? I know that with cineform on premiere i can´t monitor over intensity pro. What about my s-video out on the ATI sapphire?could i connect a 14´CRT tv (i don´t have the money for a broadcast monitor)? or it´s better to use my second DVI-out for a FULLHD monitor (CRT or LCD)? Can i do both?. Here in Brasil everything we do in HD for now will be downsample to SD so i need to have an interlaced CRT TV to view the result before go to DVD or tape(mini-dv,beta, dvcam). Any tips? options? questions?

November 3rd, 2007, 07:37 AM	#31
Stu Minnis Regular Crew Join Date: May 2003 Location: Virginia Beach, VA Posts: 44	Thanks for starting this thread, Miguel. I was considering the exact same workflow you're talking about but was also disappointed to learn that Aspect HD isn't compatible with BM output. The second it is, I'll be paying for Aspect HD. I know this is the Cineform forum, but I feel like I should add a few points here about working without AHD and WITH BM. First, you can use Intensity to monitor a native HDV project; you don't have to capture thought Intensity's HDMI input to do it. You can set up a project in CS3 using the BM presets and then switch your capture mode in that project from Decklink to HDV. Even though you're capturing and working with MPEG2, you still get realtime HDMI monitoring out through Intensity. Also, while I am very interested in what Aspect HD can do for my workflow, I have to say I haven't encountered the infamous glitches with HDV editing that populate so many forum discussions. I'm running CS3 on a Core2 Duo and editing native HDV, but other than long project load times for larger projects, I haven't had any significant problems...so far.

November 3rd, 2007, 10:21 AM	#32
Carl Middleton Major Player Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Fernandina Beach, FL Posts: 562	Stu, The biggest difference I noticed, other than the realtime effects, was the the project load time with aspect, literally dropped from 10-15 minutes(!!!) down to about 1 minute. This is on similar projects, different episodes of the same show. :) That and if I remember right, no conforming/indexing times. Might have just been one or the other on that, tho, but a significant improvement on building the project file for large projects, shaved about half a day of building project files off my time. :) Carl

November 3rd, 2007, 01:09 PM	#36
Carl Middleton Major Player Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Fernandina Beach, FL Posts: 562	Aye, I couldn't remember whether it was indexing, conforming, or both. I just remembered it being much faster. :) Carl

January 3rd, 2008, 07:07 PM	#38
David Taylor Major Player Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Solana Beach, CA Posts: 853	The "hint" is that we're actively working on integrating Blackmagic cards into the CineForm playback engine. That's a more definitive response than earlier in this thread. I don't have schedule yet - we'll keep you updated. Also note that currently only our Prospect HD family supports HD-SDI cards for monitoring. We're considering some product lineup changes and we'll let you know if Aspect HD becomes compatible with HD-SDI (or HDMI) monitoring.

January 4th, 2008, 05:05 AM	#39
John McGinley Regular Crew Join Date: May 2005 Posts: 142	I too eagerly await support for the Intensity cards. I was so glad you guys added the monitoring window on capture. Is the plan to also allow for fullscreen monitoring through the hdmi on capture as well as supporting timeline monitoring?

January 23rd, 2008, 02:39 PM	#42
Sergio Sanchez Regular Crew Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Mexico Posts: 176	John: In premiere i´ve never been able to monitor to my SD CRT monitor , when editing in HD. Even using the S-video out from my laptop. But in After Effects i can do it over firewire no matter the resolution of the comp. So that the reference I use for color correcting clips, or effects when working on my house. I just use it as a second opinion, since the colorspace of the SD monitor is very different from the HD standard. The other thing you can do, is monitor your video on a LCD monitor using the second dvi,of the video card if you calibrate it properly you will not have problems with it. You can get a monitor calibrator for a little money using a REC709 2.2 gamma ICC profile and use it for your monitor. The results will be much better than with a cheap SD monitor even it is professional. You can even use a HDTV television, and balance it with the correct color profiling. It will give very acceptable results. You can use a DVI to HDMI convertor. I have one system working that way and it works perfect. For me, if your not using a High End SDI output and monitor like a Sony, Cinetal or eCinema monitor, the monitoring is the same as using a good LCD. In fact sometimes I prefer to use a good HD TV than a cheap "pro" monitor. For me is a reference only, since most of the "professional" monitors, LCT, CRT´S and TV´s gives me only 8bits of color precision, so I dont trust them any way. And cheap "pro" monitors are always expensive than a good LCD monitors. You can find a pretty good LCD with much more features than a prosumer monitor for less money. I´ve done a lot of proyects using that method and when I see the shots using the profiling in a hi-end HD-SDI monitoring, the image looks exactly the same as in my monitors. You have to use correct profiling, and trust more in your image analisys instruments than in your eye. I´ve even done color correction for expensive productions using that method and the results are great. If you have a little extra money you can use an EIZO Color Edge or FlexScan monitor, these are really great computer LCD monitors, they have a very wide gamut. In fact the Color Edge have the ability to adjust the gamma in hardware. If you use the correct color profile they will be the closest to a Hi-End monitor. LaCie has very good displays too. Last edited by Sergio Sanchez; January 23rd, 2008 at 06:07 PM.

March 10th, 2008, 10:34 PM	#43
Alex Raskin Trustee Join Date: Sep 2003 Posts: 1,435	Panasonic BT-LH1700W as hd-sdi monitor? Probably more during acquisition than post? anyone used it?

August 26th, 2009, 03:53 PM	#44
Robin Davies-Rollinson Trustee Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Gwaelod-y-garth, Cardiff, CYMRU/WALES Posts: 1,215	Just looking for an update on this thread. I was intending to buy the Intensity Pro card for monitoring an HD timeline from CS3. The files would have been AVCHD material converted by Neo Scene. I have no intention of actually capturing material via the Intensity card - only monitoring via HDMI out into an HD tv. I understand that natively captured via Firewire HDV files will play out OK, but how about the Cineform files? Another question: How does Premiere recognise the new Intensity hardware? Is it automatically showing up in the CS3 menu? - or is there some software that comes with the card? Many thanks in anticipation...