24P Question at DVinfo.net

Stephen van Vuuren · January 9th, 2005, 03:29 AM

I'm working in Vegas 5 on Pentium 3.2, 2GB RAM and need single stream, fullrez, playback of lossless 1080p 24fps files (native, not HDV).

What is my best bet for playback, hardware, software and/or codec?

David Newman · January 9th, 2005, 11:40 AM

As you posted your question in the CineForm section is your question for us?

CineForm codecs are visually lossless (you can read what we mean by that here : http://www.cineform.com/technology/quality.htm.) In Connect HD and Aspect HD we do support 1080p playback at HDV resolutions (up to 1440x1080 anamorphic 8bit.) The codec has a progressive mode for improved quality and efficiency -- you don't have to use HDV sources. If you are looking to do film work I would recommend Prospect HD which supports 1920x1080 in 10bit and supports full resolution HDSDI input and output -- this will require a dual processor system.

Read the January issue of Post Magazine for using CineForm Intermediates for film work.

Stephen van Vuuren · January 9th, 2005, 11:50 AM

Yes, it was about the various Cineform options. My project is not film - it's native 1080p at 24fps created in After Effects. Frame size is 1920 X 1080.

I just need to playback it back in lossless codec to be able to accurate see my work.

David Newman · January 9th, 2005, 06:33 PM

We have yet to release a codec only option for this type of work -- although the CFHD codec would work fine. If you are willing to compromise and use 1440x1080 for your previews you could try the free download of Connect HD -- Connect comes with a VfW codec so you can export using After Effects. Many other codecs like HUFFYUV will be too slow at this resolution.

Luis Otero · December 15th, 2005, 08:50 PM

Hello David,

I have material shot with a HD100 in 24P mode. I captured it from the CU-VH1 to Premier Pro; of course, during capturing I cannot see the image as we have discussed before. Then import the clips into a 30P Aspect HD Timeline in Premiere, and when I play it I am able to see it in both, capturing screen and in the CU-VH1 LCD!

So, what is happening? Any pull-down? The motion signature and quality is without a doubt 24P. Any technical explanation of this pleasant behavior (since now I can see it in the LCD spooler)?

Thanks,

Luis Otero

David Newman · December 15th, 2005, 09:36 PM

Sorry you must have missed describing a step. This sentence doesn't make sense to me - "Then import the clips into a 30P Aspect HD Timeline in Premiere, and when I play it I am able to see it in both, capturing screen and in the CU-VH1 LCD!" How can playing on the timeline have anything to do with capture -- they are mutually exclusive.

Luis Otero · December 15th, 2005, 09:48 PM

Sorry for the broken explanation:

1. Shot footage with HD100 in 24P mode
2. Captured clips to the computer using the CU-VH1
3. Opened a 30P Aspect HD 3.4 timeline in Premiere Pro 1.5.1
4. Imported the 24P clips into the project (clips properties labeled as 23.976)
5. Exported to a tape using the CU-VH1
6. I was able to reproduce the footage in the LCD of the "spooler" and in a HD monitor through the Component Video Out with a clear, no doubt motion signature of 24P.

Hope this time was clear to you.

Thanks,

Luis

David Newman · December 15th, 2005, 09:51 PM

It has actually converted 24 to 30 with a not so nice pulldown. Why are you running a 30p timeline?

Luis Otero · December 15th, 2005, 09:58 PM

Just testing before use for a potencial use in broadcast. I did not notice a "not so nice pulldown"; actually, it preserved the 24P motion signature IMHO. What cuantitative and cualitative parameters do you use to evaluate the visual quality of the type of pulldown automaticaly done here?

Thanks for your input,

Luis

Michael Stewart · April 7th, 2006, 06:55 AM

Still not clear on how to do this AND GET A dvd that the DVD player will recognize as progressive

using PPro2, Encore2, Cineform, and Cinemacraft SP

Thanks
Mike

David Jimerson · April 7th, 2006, 07:23 AM

What's not clear? What have you tried, and what problems are you having?

From PP, you'd export a DVD-compliant MPEG-2 (720x480, bitrate of 8000 or less) at a frame rate of 23.976 (or 23.98; you know) and progressive. Encore should then be able to burn that to DVD as a straight 24p file. (Not sure exactly what the settings might be, but I'm sure Help will tell you.)

The player will then add 2:3 pulldown for 60i display on a standard TV, and if it's a progressive-scan player set to display progressively (on a TV which can do that), it'll play it as 24p.

Jeff Baker · April 12th, 2006, 04:31 PM

So I don't want to choose the option in Vegas to create a 24P DVD Mpeg2 with 2-3 pulldown? It's confusing because those default output template settings in Vegas 6... Also the Magic Bullet Suite manual calls for setting pulldown in After Effects for its 24P output.

So don't do this?

Eric Edwards · March 27th, 2007, 12:47 AM

Hey guys, I was hoping you could help me with this problem...I need to get solid 24 progressive frames out of my shooting with the fx1 with no studder or "ghosting", etc. I know that in cineframe 24 frames...with fast motion, you get that blur that is associated with it...

So I went ahead and have been shooting my films with no cineframe, just native 60i (also using redrock's M2 adapter and nikon lenses). So the video is very fast while shooting...anyhow, when I go to capture my footage in Aspect HD, I select remove CF24 pulldown as that gives me 24p. When I view my footage though, I still have some of that ghosting issues and it doesnt look very fluid.

I input this footage into a Cineform Project file in Premiere pro 1.5.1 (24p project file). I still get that ghosting which I figured would be gone...but when I take frame blending off, it goes away...however the video doesnt feel fluid anymore, it more like jumps.

What is the best way of shooting with the FX1 then converting with Cineform HD to get 24p and have my video very fluid with no type of ghosting or anything...

Any help would be greatly appreciated and I thank you all in advance.

Eric Edwards

Steven Gotz · March 27th, 2007, 01:59 AM

If you want 24p for film out then you need to shoot 60i and have it done professionally. If you just want 24p because you heard that it looks better, it doesn't, then shoot 24f and use Cineform to capture it as 24p.

Why do you want 24p instead of 30p?

Eric Edwards · March 27th, 2007, 03:59 AM

Well ive done stuff in 24p which does look decent...but I will take your word for it....do you think that 30p is better for the cinematic look as well as motion? If so i'll give it a try, ive already shot footage in 60i, so what is the easiest way to put that to 30p using Cineform? ive never done that conversion before...

Anymore info on this would be of great help.

January 9th, 2005, 03:29 AM	#1
Stephen van Vuuren Space Hipster Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Greensboro, NC Posts: 1,508	24fps 1080p playback? I'm working in Vegas 5 on Pentium 3.2, 2GB RAM and need single stream, fullrez, playback of lossless 1080p 24fps files (native, not HDV). What is my best bet for playback, hardware, software and/or codec? __________________ stephen v2 www.insaturnsrings.com

January 9th, 2005, 11:40 AM	#2
David Newman CTO, CineForm Inc. Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Cardiff-by-the-Sea, California Posts: 8,095	As you posted your question in the CineForm section is your question for us? CineForm codecs are visually lossless (you can read what we mean by that here : http://www.cineform.com/technology/quality.htm.) In Connect HD and Aspect HD we do support 1080p playback at HDV resolutions (up to 1440x1080 anamorphic 8bit.) The codec has a progressive mode for improved quality and efficiency -- you don't have to use HDV sources. If you are looking to do film work I would recommend Prospect HD which supports 1920x1080 in 10bit and supports full resolution HDSDI input and output -- this will require a dual processor system. Read the January issue of Post Magazine for using CineForm Intermediates for film work. __________________ David Newman -- web: www.gopro.com blog: cineform.blogspot.com -- twitter: twitter.com/David_Newman

January 9th, 2005, 11:50 AM	#3
Stephen van Vuuren Space Hipster Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Greensboro, NC Posts: 1,508	Yes, it was about the various Cineform options. My project is not film - it's native 1080p at 24fps created in After Effects. Frame size is 1920 X 1080. I just need to playback it back in lossless codec to be able to accurate see my work. __________________ stephen v2 www.insaturnsrings.com

January 9th, 2005, 06:33 PM	#4
David Newman CTO, CineForm Inc. Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Cardiff-by-the-Sea, California Posts: 8,095	We have yet to release a codec only option for this type of work -- although the CFHD codec would work fine. If you are willing to compromise and use 1440x1080 for your previews you could try the free download of Connect HD -- Connect comes with a VfW codec so you can export using After Effects. Many other codecs like HUFFYUV will be too slow at this resolution. __________________ David Newman -- web: www.gopro.com blog: cineform.blogspot.com -- twitter: twitter.com/David_Newman

December 15th, 2005, 08:50 PM	#5
Luis Otero Major Player Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Fort Dodge, IA Posts: 221	24P material in a 30P Premiere Timeline Hello David, I have material shot with a HD100 in 24P mode. I captured it from the CU-VH1 to Premier Pro; of course, during capturing I cannot see the image as we have discussed before. Then import the clips into a 30P Aspect HD Timeline in Premiere, and when I play it I am able to see it in both, capturing screen and in the CU-VH1 LCD! So, what is happening? Any pull-down? The motion signature and quality is without a doubt 24P. Any technical explanation of this pleasant behavior (since now I can see it in the LCD spooler)? Thanks, Luis Otero

December 15th, 2005, 09:36 PM	#6
David Newman CTO, CineForm Inc. Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Cardiff-by-the-Sea, California Posts: 8,095	Sorry you must have missed describing a step. This sentence doesn't make sense to me - "Then import the clips into a 30P Aspect HD Timeline in Premiere, and when I play it I am able to see it in both, capturing screen and in the CU-VH1 LCD!" How can playing on the timeline have anything to do with capture -- they are mutually exclusive. __________________ David Newman -- web: www.gopro.com blog: cineform.blogspot.com -- twitter: twitter.com/David_Newman

December 15th, 2005, 09:48 PM	#7
Luis Otero Major Player Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Fort Dodge, IA Posts: 221	Sorry for the broken explanation: 1. Shot footage with HD100 in 24P mode 2. Captured clips to the computer using the CU-VH1 3. Opened a 30P Aspect HD 3.4 timeline in Premiere Pro 1.5.1 4. Imported the 24P clips into the project (clips properties labeled as 23.976) 5. Exported to a tape using the CU-VH1 6. I was able to reproduce the footage in the LCD of the "spooler" and in a HD monitor through the Component Video Out with a clear, no doubt motion signature of 24P. Hope this time was clear to you. Thanks, Luis

December 15th, 2005, 09:51 PM	#8
David Newman CTO, CineForm Inc. Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Cardiff-by-the-Sea, California Posts: 8,095	It has actually converted 24 to 30 with a not so nice pulldown. Why are you running a 30p timeline? __________________ David Newman -- web: www.gopro.com blog: cineform.blogspot.com -- twitter: twitter.com/David_Newman

December 15th, 2005, 09:58 PM	#9
Luis Otero Major Player Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Fort Dodge, IA Posts: 221	Just testing before use for a potencial use in broadcast. I did not notice a "not so nice pulldown"; actually, it preserved the 24P motion signature IMHO. What cuantitative and cualitative parameters do you use to evaluate the visual quality of the type of pulldown automaticaly done here? Thanks for your input, Luis Last edited by Luis Otero; December 16th, 2005 at 12:51 AM.

April 7th, 2006, 06:55 AM	#10
Michael Stewart Major Player Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Spokane, Wa. Posts: 445	24p DVD Still not clear on how to do this AND GET A dvd that the DVD player will recognize as progressive using PPro2, Encore2, Cineform, and Cinemacraft SP Thanks Mike

April 7th, 2006, 07:23 AM	#11
David Jimerson Jubal 28 Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Wilmington, NC Posts: 872	What's not clear? What have you tried, and what problems are you having? From PP, you'd export a DVD-compliant MPEG-2 (720x480, bitrate of 8000 or less) at a frame rate of 23.976 (or 23.98; you know) and progressive. Encore should then be able to burn that to DVD as a straight 24p file. (Not sure exactly what the settings might be, but I'm sure Help will tell you.) The player will then add 2:3 pulldown for 60i display on a standard TV, and if it's a progressive-scan player set to display progressively (on a TV which can do that), it'll play it as 24p. __________________ www.wrightsvillebeachstudios.com

April 12th, 2006, 04:31 PM	#12
Jeff Baker Regular Crew Join Date: May 2005 Location: Northampton, MA Posts: 184	So I don't want to choose the option in Vegas to create a 24P DVD Mpeg2 with 2-3 pulldown? It's confusing because those default output template settings in Vegas 6... Also the Magic Bullet Suite manual calls for setting pulldown in After Effects for its 24P output. So don't do this? __________________ Canon C100, 5D3

March 27th, 2007, 12:47 AM	#13
Eric Edwards Regular Crew Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: San Diego/ LA / Riverside, CA, USA Posts: 28	24p Issues with FX1 Hey guys, I was hoping you could help me with this problem...I need to get solid 24 progressive frames out of my shooting with the fx1 with no studder or "ghosting", etc. I know that in cineframe 24 frames...with fast motion, you get that blur that is associated with it... So I went ahead and have been shooting my films with no cineframe, just native 60i (also using redrock's M2 adapter and nikon lenses). So the video is very fast while shooting...anyhow, when I go to capture my footage in Aspect HD, I select remove CF24 pulldown as that gives me 24p. When I view my footage though, I still have some of that ghosting issues and it doesnt look very fluid. I input this footage into a Cineform Project file in Premiere pro 1.5.1 (24p project file). I still get that ghosting which I figured would be gone...but when I take frame blending off, it goes away...however the video doesnt feel fluid anymore, it more like jumps. What is the best way of shooting with the FX1 then converting with Cineform HD to get 24p and have my video very fluid with no type of ghosting or anything... Any help would be greatly appreciated and I thank you all in advance. Eric Edwards

March 27th, 2007, 01:59 AM	#14
Steven Gotz Trustee Join Date: May 2002 Location: Clermont, FL Posts: 1,520	If you want 24p for film out then you need to shoot 60i and have it done professionally. If you just want 24p because you heard that it looks better, it doesn't, then shoot 24f and use Cineform to capture it as 24p. Why do you want 24p instead of 30p? __________________ Steven Gotz http://www.stevengotz.com

March 27th, 2007, 03:59 AM	#15
Eric Edwards Regular Crew Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: San Diego/ LA / Riverside, CA, USA Posts: 28	Well ive done stuff in 24p which does look decent...but I will take your word for it....do you think that 30p is better for the cinematic look as well as motion? If so i'll give it a try, ive already shot footage in 60i, so what is the easiest way to put that to 30p using Cineform? ive never done that conversion before... Anymore info on this would be of great help.