CineForm and Sony Vegas 8

Glenn Thomas · January 10th, 2008, 03:06 AM

Apologies if this has been answered before, I did a search but couldn't find anything. Can 10 or 12bit Neo 4K files be edited using Vegas 8, maybe utilizing it's 32bit float mode? I'm not exactly sure how their 32bit mode works and have not had the time to read up on it. I have a bluescreen/CGI project currently in the writing stage that I would eventually like to edit together at a 2k resolution using Vegas if possible.

Roy Feldman · January 10th, 2008, 06:21 AM

If I am bringing in a converted file from cineform HDV NEO(8 bit) is there any advantage to have sony vegas editing in the 32 bit mode or am I just wasting horsepower?

Bill Ravens · January 10th, 2008, 09:00 AM

Regardless of where your video source is coming from, 32-bit Vegas can help you, if you use it properly. Almost all videocams record luma values outside of the broadcast luma range of RGB 16-235. Using 32-bit in vegas allows you to bring back values into the useable range. Sometimes, there are values above RGB 255 that are recoverable. But it's not automatic and not all codecs are 32-bit aware, so, you need to keep track of things manually. I use the pluge bars to double check everything.

As a side note, Vegas I/O is only 8-bit, even if you use internal processing of 32 bit floating point math. So, it's quite critical to bring all those illegal values back into RGB 16-235

David Newman · January 10th, 2008, 09:40 AM

Currently Vegas can do 4K resolution, I think 2K is still the limit. We plan to add 32-bit support to Vegas but it is not there yet.

Allan Black · January 10th, 2008, 02:39 PM

Very interesting Bill, how and at what stage should you do that? Can you explain 'pluge bars?'

And is 'outside RGB 16-235' what I'm seeing when I capture Panasonic SD with the Pana SD codec, the result being high contrast with shiny blacks with not much detail in them.

When I convert those files with NEO HDV the result is less contrast and the blacks are grayer with some detail in them. Would that be bringing the SD into RGB 16-235?

Sorry Roy I don't mean to convert your thread mate :)

Bill Ravens · January 10th, 2008, 03:19 PM

My comments stem in direct reference to Vegas 8a.

If you open the Media Generator and drop the Test Pattern/NTSC SMPTE bars on the timeline, you'll notice in the lower right corner, under the red color bar, a series of 3 black bars. These are the pluge bars. Take a look at the definition of plude in wikipedia for a more complete description.

Now, look at the Vegas waveform monitor for this frame. Make sure the WFM is set to STUDIO RGB....see the pluge bars? The middle bar should be on 0% IRE.

If you have an HDV camera that can generate color bars, it will also have a pluge. Import the color bars from your camera and look at the pluge bars in the WFM. It should look the same as it did with the media generator test pattern. If it doesn't use the FX/Sony Levels to adjust computer to RGB or RGB to Computer.....what happens?

I've just touched on some basics here. I really can't spend the time, right now, to explain in more detail. Just remember that NTSC/Broadcast television will show 16-235 RGB It will clip all values below RGB16 or above RGB235. All cameras capture in full Computer RGB, 0-255.

Allan Black · January 10th, 2008, 05:47 PM

Thanks Bill, bet I'm not the only one who appreciates your explanation.
Cheers.

Glenn Thomas · January 10th, 2008, 09:47 PM

Ok, great, thanks. Maybe by the time Vegas 9 is out for the 32bit support?

Ali Husain · January 11th, 2008, 08:58 PM

i don't understand why you can't use neo hd and edit in 2k/10-bit with vegas. i believe 10-bit footage can be edited fine preserving the bit depth. as long as you don't do a lot of cc work:

i've noticed that some of the plugins are not fully float compatible and produce strange results when pushing color.

Mark Duckworth · January 17th, 2008, 03:48 AM

Just updated to Vegas Pro 8.0b. Same problem. Same solution of renaming the cfhd.dll. Very irritating. But oh,well I know it's not Cineforms fault.

Robert Kennedy · January 19th, 2008, 01:54 PM

What are the minimum system requirements to get real-time 1080p 24fps playback in Vegas 8.0b using NeoHD? Will a Core2Quad 6600 do it?
Am I the only person wanting to edit in 1920x1080 online?
Premiere is no longer an option, I wasted 5 years of my life on that NLE.

Aaron Courtney · January 22nd, 2008, 02:48 PM

Hey Robert, I see no one has responded so I'll throw in my own experience here. I realize you are asking about the HD, not the HDV product, so be sure to remember that when reading about my experience.

First, you're totally overpowered on the processor side for editing the resulting .avi cineform file. I'm using Vegas Pro 8.0b with a Core2Duo 1.6 (which I will be OC'ing to as high as my RAM can handle) and processor utilization is a complete non-factor. Honestly, I don't see why 100% of people trying to edit AVCHD don't just drop the $200-$250 for NEO HDV and be done with it, LOL! Presto, lack of editing options for AVCHD just disappeared - the format is now a complete non-issue for NLE's. And it's not like the converted intermediate file is stupid huge either. It's roughly 3-3.5x the size of the original .mts. Big deal, a 160GB HDD is like $50 today. Six months from now, that will be the price for the 250's.

Where you need your CPU horsepower is during the conversion process. Assuming you're using decent SATA II drives, the processor is now the limiting factor. Not sure about NEO's ability to fully exploit the quad's - that's a question you'd have to ask them. Even though I'm using a RAID 0 setup, I'm sure it isn't necessary. I highly doubt there is a chip out there that could keep up with even a decent HDD during the conversion process. So IOW more CPU power = faster conversions.

David Taylor · January 22nd, 2008, 06:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aaron Courtney

Not sure about NEO's ability to fully exploit the quad's - that's a question you'd have to ask them. Even though I'm using a RAID 0 setup, I'm sure it isn't necessary.

Thanks Aaron - great post. I thought I'd address the issue of threading. The CineForm encoder is very well threaded, so for operations in which we control we usually peg the CPUs at 100%. In the case of AVCHD, because we recommend a commercially-available AVCHD decoder, there may not be as much threading efficiency from that decoder, so if the CPUs are below 100% that's the reason.

Also, for conversion, a single drive is totally fine. Depending on the number of streams you need to process on the timeline in RT we usually recommend a two-drive RAID 0 configuration, but it's not a requirement.

Aaron Courtney · January 22nd, 2008, 11:14 PM

For the record, if anyone cares, I'm using v1.6 of CoreAVC Pro for my decoder and my Core2Duo is always max'd during conversion. Wish I could comment on the multithreading capabilities of this decoder WRT a quad core, but alas, I can't...

Robert Kennedy · January 22nd, 2008, 11:14 PM

THank you for sharing your expierience. I have an Athlon X2 4200+ (2.2ghz dual core) and can only get about 7 fps playback when playing back 1080p footage encocoded by NeoHD.
Anyone else?

January 10th, 2008, 03:06 AM	#106
Glenn Thomas Major Player Join Date: May 2005 Location: Sydney, Australia Posts: 320	Vegas 8 and Neo 4K? Apologies if this has been answered before, I did a search but couldn't find anything. Can 10 or 12bit Neo 4K files be edited using Vegas 8, maybe utilizing it's 32bit float mode? I'm not exactly sure how their 32bit mode works and have not had the time to read up on it. I have a bluescreen/CGI project currently in the writing stage that I would eventually like to edit together at a 2k resolution using Vegas if possible. __________________ Personal Website: http://www.avene.org

January 10th, 2008, 06:21 AM	#107
Roy Feldman Regular Crew Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Grosse pointe, michigan Posts: 189	32bit vegas w/Neo HDV If I am bringing in a converted file from cineform HDV NEO(8 bit) is there any advantage to have sony vegas editing in the 32 bit mode or am I just wasting horsepower?

January 10th, 2008, 09:40 AM	#109
David Newman CTO, CineForm Inc. Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Cardiff-by-the-Sea, California Posts: 8,095	Currently Vegas can do 4K resolution, I think 2K is still the limit. We plan to add 32-bit support to Vegas but it is not there yet. __________________ David Newman -- web: www.gopro.com blog: cineform.blogspot.com -- twitter: twitter.com/David_Newman

January 10th, 2008, 09:47 PM	#113
Glenn Thomas Major Player Join Date: May 2005 Location: Sydney, Australia Posts: 320	Ok, great, thanks. Maybe by the time Vegas 9 is out for the 32bit support? __________________ Personal Website: http://www.avene.org

January 17th, 2008, 03:48 AM	#115
Mark Duckworth Regular Crew Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: Japan Posts: 93	Just updated to Vegas Pro 8.0b. Same problem. Same solution of renaming the cfhd.dll. Very irritating. But oh,well I know it's not Cineforms fault. __________________ Intel Core 2 Quad E6600(@3GHz) \| Nvidia GeForce 9600 GT/1GB PCI-e x16 DVI \| 8GB DDR2-SDRAM \| 2 x 1TB S-ATA2/7200rpm/32MB Hard Drives \| Vista Ultimate 64

January 10th, 2008, 09:00 AM	#108
Bill Ravens Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: santa fe, nm Posts: 3,264 Images: 10	Regardless of where your video source is coming from, 32-bit Vegas can help you, if you use it properly. Almost all videocams record luma values outside of the broadcast luma range of RGB 16-235. Using 32-bit in vegas allows you to bring back values into the useable range. Sometimes, there are values above RGB 255 that are recoverable. But it's not automatic and not all codecs are 32-bit aware, so, you need to keep track of things manually. I use the pluge bars to double check everything. As a side note, Vegas I/O is only 8-bit, even if you use internal processing of 32 bit floating point math. So, it's quite critical to bring all those illegal values back into RGB 16-235

January 10th, 2008, 02:39 PM	#110
Allan Black Inner Circle Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Sydney. Posts: 2,928	Very interesting Bill, how and at what stage should you do that? Can you explain 'pluge bars?' And is 'outside RGB 16-235' what I'm seeing when I capture Panasonic SD with the Pana SD codec, the result being high contrast with shiny blacks with not much detail in them. When I convert those files with NEO HDV the result is less contrast and the blacks are grayer with some detail in them. Would that be bringing the SD into RGB 16-235? Sorry Roy I don't mean to convert your thread mate :)

January 10th, 2008, 03:19 PM	#111
Bill Ravens Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: santa fe, nm Posts: 3,264 Images: 10	My comments stem in direct reference to Vegas 8a. If you open the Media Generator and drop the Test Pattern/NTSC SMPTE bars on the timeline, you'll notice in the lower right corner, under the red color bar, a series of 3 black bars. These are the pluge bars. Take a look at the definition of plude in wikipedia for a more complete description. Now, look at the Vegas waveform monitor for this frame. Make sure the WFM is set to STUDIO RGB....see the pluge bars? The middle bar should be on 0% IRE. If you have an HDV camera that can generate color bars, it will also have a pluge. Import the color bars from your camera and look at the pluge bars in the WFM. It should look the same as it did with the media generator test pattern. If it doesn't use the FX/Sony Levels to adjust computer to RGB or RGB to Computer.....what happens? I've just touched on some basics here. I really can't spend the time, right now, to explain in more detail. Just remember that NTSC/Broadcast television will show 16-235 RGB It will clip all values below RGB16 or above RGB235. All cameras capture in full Computer RGB, 0-255.

January 10th, 2008, 05:47 PM	#112
Allan Black Inner Circle Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Sydney. Posts: 2,928	Thanks Bill, bet I'm not the only one who appreciates your explanation. Cheers.

January 11th, 2008, 08:58 PM	#114
Ali Husain Regular Crew Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: San Jose, CA Posts: 141	i don't understand why you can't use neo hd and edit in 2k/10-bit with vegas. i believe 10-bit footage can be edited fine preserving the bit depth. as long as you don't do a lot of cc work: i've noticed that some of the plugins are not fully float compatible and produce strange results when pushing color.

January 19th, 2008, 01:54 PM	#116
Robert Kennedy Regular Crew Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: North Hollywood, CA Posts: 62	NeoHD, Vegas and 1080p = realtime? What are the minimum system requirements to get real-time 1080p 24fps playback in Vegas 8.0b using NeoHD? Will a Core2Quad 6600 do it? Am I the only person wanting to edit in 1920x1080 online? Premiere is no longer an option, I wasted 5 years of my life on that NLE.

January 22nd, 2008, 02:48 PM	#117
Aaron Courtney Major Player Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 229	Hey Robert, I see no one has responded so I'll throw in my own experience here. I realize you are asking about the HD, not the HDV product, so be sure to remember that when reading about my experience. First, you're totally overpowered on the processor side for editing the resulting .avi cineform file. I'm using Vegas Pro 8.0b with a Core2Duo 1.6 (which I will be OC'ing to as high as my RAM can handle) and processor utilization is a complete non-factor. Honestly, I don't see why 100% of people trying to edit AVCHD don't just drop the $200-$250 for NEO HDV and be done with it, LOL! Presto, lack of editing options for AVCHD just disappeared - the format is now a complete non-issue for NLE's. And it's not like the converted intermediate file is stupid huge either. It's roughly 3-3.5x the size of the original .mts. Big deal, a 160GB HDD is like $50 today. Six months from now, that will be the price for the 250's. Where you need your CPU horsepower is during the conversion process. Assuming you're using decent SATA II drives, the processor is now the limiting factor. Not sure about NEO's ability to fully exploit the quad's - that's a question you'd have to ask them. Even though I'm using a RAID 0 setup, I'm sure it isn't necessary. I highly doubt there is a chip out there that could keep up with even a decent HDD during the conversion process. So IOW more CPU power = faster conversions.

January 22nd, 2008, 11:14 PM	#119
Aaron Courtney Major Player Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 229	For the record, if anyone cares, I'm using v1.6 of CoreAVC Pro for my decoder and my Core2Duo is always max'd during conversion. Wish I could comment on the multithreading capabilities of this decoder WRT a quad core, but alas, I can't...

January 22nd, 2008, 11:14 PM	#120
Robert Kennedy Regular Crew Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: North Hollywood, CA Posts: 62	THank you for sharing your expierience. I have an Athlon X2 4200+ (2.2ghz dual core) and can only get about 7 fps playback when playing back 1080p footage encocoded by NeoHD. Anyone else?