CineForm and Sony Vegas 8

[Peter Plevritis]

Originally Posted by Peter Plevritis

David,

Recently I downloaded the demo of VegasPro8 and Neo2K. I was hoping that maybe these new releases would work out the lack of recognizable timecode in the AVIs (doesn't seem to work in .mov files either).

Back in Aug you posted this response to someone else.

"We try not to missing things, but timecode is not supported for historical reasons. AVI has no standard mechanism for storing timecode. If you use our Premiere integrated products (Aspect or Prospect HD) you do get timecode as we created the AVI importer. But outside of Premiere everyone implements timecode differently or not at all."

Timecode support is important to me. If anyone else finds this important please say so - maybe if there is enough interest this can be addressed.

Can this be solved?

Pete

Any progress on this? Did I miss some news?

[David Newman]

Originally Posted by Don Donatello

" biggest advantage to Vegas, is it can now work with RAW cameras, SI-2K, Red, "

and speaking of RED raw ... any cineform solution in the makings ??

Problem with digging up old threads is none of this applies today. We haven't yet supported the 32-bit modes in Vegas, as the market has not demanded it. Also Vegas can support 4K yet, defeating it useful for Red footage. Yes CineForm has a 4K workflow for raw cameras, but for only Premiere Pro today.

[Kris Bird]

David- when you mean that cineform doesn't support 32bit in vegas, what do you mean specifically? IO? Presumably you don't have to do anything in order for people to benefit from 32bit internal processing, truncating to 8bit on output. By the way- if I render from a 32bit project to a cineform AVI, should I apply a levels to bring values into studio rgb space? (I'm just about to embark on this whole area for our current project.)

[David Newman]

Yes, I'm only talking about I/O. The codec Vegas uses only support 8-bit I/O in the studio RGB space.

[Robert Kennedy]

Shortly after my previous postings in this thread I bit the bullet and built a Q6600 PC with Vegas 8.0b. My Cineform footage still won't reach full playback speeds and Vegas still does not use its available resources. I have tried the following.

GOAL: Playback 1920x1080 Cineform files on a 1080p monitor with 1:1 pixel mapping using Vegas 8.0b on a new Quadcore system.
Source file: 1920x1080 full raster 29.97i Cineform HD Codec v.3.8.2 AVI captured live using Blackmagic Intensity.
Vegas Project file settings: HD 1080-60i default
Cineform NeoHD Build: 3.3.1.169 17-June-2008

Suggestion: Set Cineform to "faster" playback mode
Outcome: about 1 fps faster
RESULT: FAILURE

Suggestion: Set Vegas to "Preview" or "Half" or "Auto"
Outcome: Framerate hovers at ~29 but resolution is only 960x540. For solid real-time playback it has to output 480x270 which looks like YouTube.
RESULT: FAILURE

Suggestion: Upgrade computer.
Outcome: I did. My Q6600 1066mhz FSB computer is what these tests are run on.
RESULT: FAILURE

Suggestion: Don't use Intensity card during playback.
Outcome: I'm not. These results are for the video preview window only.
RESULT: FAILURE

Suggestion: Maybe other processes are slowing your computer.
Outcome: Did a fresh install of Vista 32-bit and Vegas 8.0b and cleaned up non-vital processes.
RESULT: FAILURE

Suggestion: Use Premiere. (NeoHD version)
Outcome: Neither Intensity Pro nor second DVI on my Quadro provide full raster 1080p output. Cried in corner just remembering past 5 years of unpleasant NLE experience.
RESULT: FAILURE

Suggestion: Use Premiere. (ProspectHD version)
Outcome: External monitoring options provide low-rez output with incorrect aspect ratio. Color change between freeze-frame (RGB) and playback (YUV).
RESULT: FAILURE

Suggestion: Buy a mac.
Outcome: If I had spent the amount of time dedicated to this issue working for wages then the $10k pricetag wouldn't be prohibitive.
RESULT: FAILURE

Suggestion: Edit in HDV.
Outcome: This is about getting Cineform to work, silly.
RESULT: FAILURE

Suggestion: Remove filters and effects.
Outcome: No increase in framerate and I'm not stupid.
RESULT: FAILURE

Suggestion: Change pixel format to 8-bit instead of 32-bit.
Outcome: I'm not stupid.
RESULT: FAILURE

Suggestion: Change "Full Resolution rendering quality" to draft.
Outcome: No increase in framerate.
RESULT: FAILURE

Suggestion: Place a checkmark in the "Enable smart rendering" box in HDLink.
Outcome: No increase in framerate.
RESULT: FAILURE

Suggestion: Encode the "Low" quality Cineform files.
Outcome: No increase in framerate.
RESULT: FAILURE

Suggestion: Edit your footage at 23.976 progressive in order to bypass on-the-fly deinterlacing and lower the data rate (due to lower framerate).
Outcome: No increase in framerate.
RESULT: FAILURE

Suggestion: Run in Windows XP SP2 compatibility mode
Outcome: No increase in framerate.
RESULT: FAILURE

Suggestion: Do not install Sony Media Manager.
Outcome: No increase in framerate.
RESULT: FAILURE

ALL I WANT IS REAL-TIME PLAYBACK FROM THE TIMELINE. I haven't even brought up getting the correct colorspace yet!

My current conclusion: Cineform is incompatible with Sony Vegas 8.0b for full raster online editing.

This is my last hurrah before I give up.

-Robert

[Kris Bird]

Tried setting Vegas's "Dynamic Ram" memory allocation to Zero? (0mb) In the preferences.

We edit on DRAFT FULL, which looks approx half-res and runs very fast.

[Robert Kennedy]

Thanks Kris. It's good to hear from somebody who is trying to accomplish the same thing I am. I tried setting the dynamic RAM from 1024 to 0 but it didn't change the framerate.

Your second suggestion, setting it to "Draft (full)" is equivalent to setting it to "Preview (half)" in my opinion and doesn't offer the full raster image I seek.

I did try something else which got me much closer. I tried playing the Cineform files off of my RAID instead of just a regular 3gbps SATA drive. This is true even though the data rate is 41510kbps (5 MB/s) which is peanuts to a properly configured SATA drive. Apparently there was some bottlenecking at the hard drive because I can now get ~23.7 fps when playing back a full raster 1080 23.976p cineform AVI from my RAID. So close, but not quite there. It dips even lower when there's lots of movement or action, so there's no headroom and the image stutters as a result. Dropping it to half res allows a consitent correct framerate, but again this does not meet my goal.

Anyone else have suggestions? I'm so close.

-Robert

[Kris Bird]

To be honest this isn't really a quest for us-- our stuff tends to have a lot of rapid cutting, and not skipping any frames under those circumstances is much more important than being full res. Our current project is a feature length horror/thriller- we run Draft/Full on Q6600/ 4gb ram, no RAID, files are 1440x1080 FilmScan... behaves very well indeed. Other boxes that we're grading/ rendering on are dual cores, and they pull the footage over the gigabit network and keep full framerate as long as it's not too rapidly cut.

Although that said, I am curious as to where the bottleneck is... and why vegas won't use multiple cores for the timeline decoding.

[Mark Woollard]

I'm seriously considering buying an HP laptop with Vista 64 (Home Premium) to use in the field to capture HDV footage with HDLink and edit in the field. I'd like to simultaneously convert to Cineform intermediate during capture (as I do with my desktop). Will it be possible to successfully capture/encode with this laptop, both to its internal 5400 350Gig drive as well as to an external 7200 USB drive? This laptop has a Core2Duo 2.0 GHz, 4Gig RAM, 8400 Nvidia 256MB dedicated video memory.

[David Newman]

The issue is not the laptop, Vista may be. Try it first before committing to any workflow paths.

[Mark Woollard]

Would Vista 32 also cause a potential issue, or were you referring only to the 64bit version?

[David Newman]

HDV cameras under Vista(32 or 64) and not always seen by HDLink.

[Robert Kennedy]

Dissappointed to see no input from you, David, as you have been very helpful in the past. What do you make of the lack of any change in framerate when switching between "fast" and "quality" mode?

I did some further testing and have refined my current conclusion:
Vegas Pro 8.0b is unable or unwilling to fully utilize my computer's resources when playing back Cineform files on the timeline. I believe inadequate use of processor time is my immediate issue, at present it uses a max of 50% of all 4 cores when playing back Cineform 1080p/23.976 files, unaltered on the timeline.

I have begun changing settings in the "internal" menu (accessed by holding shift while loading tools>preferences) in Vegas and have made no significant gains.

12 more days and I forget all of this ever happened. Maybe it's time to take up a new hobby like searching for undiscovered prime numbers.

-Robert

[Jon McGuffin]

For the record, I too would love to hear something from Cineform on this topic. Though I enjoy using and appreciate the Cineform NEO software, since using Vegas version 7, I saw an distinct slowdown in preview speed on the timeline with playback. My source footage is plain vanilla 1080i HDV 59.97fps footage out of a Sony FX1 camera to boot. I have found editing the raw .m2t files to be much faster. I've not given up using Cineform because I am a believer in their format and it has it's benefits.

What would be nice is some type of post or "guide" that could explain what to do to maximize playback on the Vegas timeline while using Vegas. If it's not going to playback full-rate, fine, I'd just like to see something that says.. Use of the following processors will yield best playback rate, RAID up two Raptor drives, etc, etc. I have no idea where the bottleneck is.

Frankly, this was a big decision when I was deciding to buy either a Core 2 Duo 3.0Ghz processor or a Core 2 Quad 2.4Ghz processor. Same price, one has 4 cores and runs at 2.4Ghz, the other only has 2 cores but runs 20% faster. I am actually more willing to give up rendering time than I am playback performance. I couldn't get a straight answer out of anybody as to which one would help me the most on playback. I personally can live with a 960x540 preview window. What I can't stand is the minute I put some color correction in or a semi difficult transition, while previewing my work, the frame rate drops to 10-12fps. That's just rediculous considering todays powerhouse computers in my opinion.

Jon

[Robert Kennedy]

Just an update for anyone else trying to playback their Cineform footage in realtime at a decent resolution on the Vegas timeline:

I contacted Vegas support and Cineform support for help. Vegas basically said "wait for the new version"... I thought 8 was the new version... Cineform said the CTO is aware of this and was going to look at improving playback in Vegas...

In the meantime my trial expired and I am going to occupy myself finding a prime number higher than 2^25,964,951 -1 until I hear back. Maybe I'll get something accomplished before my new computer goes obsolete.

-Robert