Image sharpness rendering to Cineform at DVinfo.net

Michael Mann · August 19th, 2007, 10:22 AM

After rendering original HDV footage (.m2t from Canon A1) to Cineform in Vegas 7 I see a (very, very slight but still noticable) loss in image sharpness, comparing the original (1,440x1080 .m2t) with the rendered file (1,440x1080 Cineform). If I render from .m2t to .m2t instead (using the Vegas main concept codec) I do NOT detect this minimal loss in sharpness. I'd have expected this to be the other way round. Can anyone confirm this?

(This comparison can be performed in Vegas simply by arranging the original clip frame accurate over the rendered clip and soloing either one of the two tracks.)

David Newman · August 19th, 2007, 10:44 AM

What quality level are you selecting for your CineForm conversion? If you are using the Vegas license for CineForm it only offers "Medium" which is slightly softening. Within HDLink select High or Filmscan and retest.

Michael Mann · August 19th, 2007, 01:27 PM

David, thanks for your quick response. As you proposed I retested with Cineform quality level "Filmscan 1" and the softening is gone, indeed. Good to know that. Thanks again!

David Newman · August 19th, 2007, 01:47 PM

Yes, Filmscan 1 mode was developed with a film scanning house (thus its name) to make a quality level that would preserve characteristic of film grain. When in doubt it, is the go to quality level. Yet "Hig"h is also good as that has been used in film out work for features before the Filmscan modes where offered -- High will often save you 20% disk space over Filmscan 1. For the ultra paranoid, there is Filmscan 2, we don't use in in house, we consider it overkill -- a 4:1 version of uncompressed.

Chan Ee Jien · September 6th, 2007, 11:23 AM

I recalled reading an earlier post where it was mentioned (by whom i forgot) that Cineform convert does smooth the video a bit (something to do with the MPEG artifacts?)

Steven Thomas · September 6th, 2007, 05:26 PM

Chan,
I normally use film scan 1 and the image quality is excellent.

Douglas Turner · September 10th, 2007, 07:19 AM

I captured all my footage for my feature in "Medium", as I read that "Medium" should be fine, and you'd get no visible degradation of image.

As I haven't captured any of it in "High" (my HDLink doesn't have FilmScan 1 - is this new in Aspect v5?), I don't have anything to compare it to.

Should I recapture the footage I've used? I'll be going out to SD DVD as well as HD DVD and BluRay - probably not blown up to 35mm though.

Does anyone have any experience or opinions on this?

(I'm capturing using HDLink - set to Medium, and editing in PPRO CS3, 1080i 25fps preset)

Mark Leonard · September 10th, 2007, 08:42 AM

douglas I switched from medium to high a while back and there is improvement, so if ur pc and storage space allow I would use at minimal the "high" setting.

August 19th, 2007, 10:22 AM	#1
Michael Mann Major Player Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Kelkheim, Germany Posts: 375	Image sharpness rendering to Cineform After rendering original HDV footage (.m2t from Canon A1) to Cineform in Vegas 7 I see a (very, very slight but still noticable) loss in image sharpness, comparing the original (1,440x1080 .m2t) with the rendered file (1,440x1080 Cineform). If I render from .m2t to .m2t instead (using the Vegas main concept codec) I do NOT detect this minimal loss in sharpness. I'd have expected this to be the other way round. Can anyone confirm this? (This comparison can be performed in Vegas simply by arranging the original clip frame accurate over the rendered clip and soloing either one of the two tracks.) __________________ Michael

August 19th, 2007, 10:44 AM	#2
David Newman CTO, CineForm Inc. Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Cardiff-by-the-Sea, California Posts: 8,095	What quality level are you selecting for your CineForm conversion? If you are using the Vegas license for CineForm it only offers "Medium" which is slightly softening. Within HDLink select High or Filmscan and retest. __________________ David Newman -- web: www.gopro.com blog: cineform.blogspot.com -- twitter: twitter.com/David_Newman

August 19th, 2007, 01:27 PM	#3
Michael Mann Major Player Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Kelkheim, Germany Posts: 375	David, thanks for your quick response. As you proposed I retested with Cineform quality level "Filmscan 1" and the softening is gone, indeed. Good to know that. Thanks again! __________________ Michael

August 19th, 2007, 01:47 PM	#4
David Newman CTO, CineForm Inc. Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Cardiff-by-the-Sea, California Posts: 8,095	Yes, Filmscan 1 mode was developed with a film scanning house (thus its name) to make a quality level that would preserve characteristic of film grain. When in doubt it, is the go to quality level. Yet "Hig"h is also good as that has been used in film out work for features before the Filmscan modes where offered -- High will often save you 20% disk space over Filmscan 1. For the ultra paranoid, there is Filmscan 2, we don't use in in house, we consider it overkill -- a 4:1 version of uncompressed. __________________ David Newman -- web: www.gopro.com blog: cineform.blogspot.com -- twitter: twitter.com/David_Newman

September 10th, 2007, 07:19 AM	#7
Douglas Turner Regular Crew Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Sydney, Australia Posts: 132	I captured all my footage for my feature in "Medium", as I read that "Medium" should be fine, and you'd get no visible degradation of image. As I haven't captured any of it in "High" (my HDLink doesn't have FilmScan 1 - is this new in Aspect v5?), I don't have anything to compare it to. Should I recapture the footage I've used? I'll be going out to SD DVD as well as HD DVD and BluRay - probably not blown up to 35mm though. Does anyone have any experience or opinions on this? (I'm capturing using HDLink - set to Medium, and editing in PPRO CS3, 1080i 25fps preset) __________________ Doug Turner http://therunsmovie.com

September 6th, 2007, 11:23 AM	#5
Chan Ee Jien Regular Crew Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Malaysia Posts: 67	I recalled reading an earlier post where it was mentioned (by whom i forgot) that Cineform convert does smooth the video a bit (something to do with the MPEG artifacts?)

September 6th, 2007, 05:26 PM	#6
Steven Thomas Trustee Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Gilbert, AZ Posts: 1,896	Chan, I normally use film scan 1 and the image quality is excellent.

September 10th, 2007, 08:42 AM	#8
Mark Leonard Regular Crew Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Mobile, Alabama Posts: 166	douglas I switched from medium to high a while back and there is improvement, so if ur pc and storage space allow I would use at minimal the "high" setting.