No Frame mode for broadcast? AAAAHHH! Why? at DVinfo.net

Josh Bass · March 12th, 2003, 03:59 PM

Is it true? You can't use frame mode if it's intended for Television broadcast?

Chris Hurd · March 12th, 2003, 05:13 PM

Sure you can use Frame mode for broadcast. Generally it isn't encouraged because it looks so different, but people have used it for broadcast before and I've seen Frame mode XL1 video on satellite TV channels occasionally. Who says you can't do it?

Josh Bass · March 12th, 2003, 06:52 PM

Oh. Thank God. I saw another post where someone advised someone else never to use frame mode if they intended it for broadcast. I don't remember them giving any reasons. What I shot was a skit, to be used within a show. Frame mode would make it look different from the rest of the show, and more like a short film.

Chris Hurd · March 12th, 2003, 08:39 PM

It's probably good advice not to use Frame mode for broadcast, but that's a very different thing from whether or not you can do it. Can you? Yes. Should you? That's another question entirely. Hope this helps,

Nathan Gifford · March 12th, 2003, 09:08 PM

There's a truckload of posts on this subject. Just do a search on frame mode.

I guess that brings up the other question, should you avoid using deinterlace in post when planning to use the project for broadcast?

Josh Bass · March 12th, 2003, 10:57 PM

What if you don't want to deinterlace?

Frank Granovski · March 12th, 2003, 11:19 PM

Bruce Johnson has done docs in XL1 frame mode (for broadcast on PBS).

Josh Bass · March 13th, 2003, 01:43 AM

Ah. Thank you sir.

Andre De Clercq · March 13th, 2003, 07:06 AM

Nathan, if you are happy with reduced vertical resolution (halve if the deinterlacer is field repetition based) and halved temporal resolution (choppyness), then go on with deinterlacing your original (interlaced) footage in post. If you don't like to kill quality never deinterlace for broadcast apps.

Michael Chen · March 13th, 2003, 10:34 AM

What if its not for broadcast?
But we intend to show the video only on tv screen?

I've read the frame mode vs normal mode thread , and many prefers the frame mode, does this still apply if we are gonna get it shown on tv sets?

Bill Markel · March 13th, 2003, 11:14 AM

Josh,

I advised someone in another thread not to shoot an auto race in frame mode. Fast pans, which is basically all you do in race coverage, produce a jerky motion. This would become quite tiresome to watch after a short period of time.

Can you shoot for TV in frame mode? Absolutely. But, if you have a lot of pans, zooms, and movement, the results will not be as pleasing. You really have to carefully plan out your shots.

I love the look of frame mode, but if I plan on the shots having a lot of movement, I will not use it for broadcast.

HTH

Bill

Josh Bass · March 13th, 2003, 03:41 PM

HMM. Food for thought. Thank you.

Andre De Clercq · March 14th, 2003, 02:12 AM

Shooting in frame mode does result in jerkyness on fast motion but not allways in reduced vertical esolution. Some people apparently like this jerkyness and do associate it with "film look". The whole discussion about "frame mode", progressive shooting... becomes an old fashioned discussion, because modern diplays mostly use powerfull deinterlacers and manipulate the image data (remapping, gamma adaption,...). Even the jerkyness resulting from film footage is often being taken away by frame interpolation.

Josh Bass · March 14th, 2003, 02:40 AM

You'd still see it in the theaters, right? Just not at home on TV shows shot on film, that's what you're saying? I don't notice it in theaters unless I look for it, so could I assume, within reason, that the casual viewer won't notice it?

Andre De Clercq · March 14th, 2003, 07:56 AM

What I mean is that there is no longer a spacial (number of pixels, number of lines...) relation , nor a temporal (frames/fields per second... optical dutycycle..)relation between the original image and (depending on the display (CRT,LCD...) what is finally been seen. Everything gets optimized for "the best picture" within a specific display technology.

March 12th, 2003, 03:59 PM	#1
Josh Bass Slash Rules! Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Houston, Texas Posts: 5,472	No Frame mode for broadcast? AAAAHHH! Why? Is it true? You can't use frame mode if it's intended for Television broadcast? __________________ The Bass' camerawork The Bass on IMDB

March 12th, 2003, 05:13 PM	#2
Chris Hurd Obstreperous Rex Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: San Marcos, TX Posts: 27,369 Images: 513	Sure you can use Frame mode for broadcast. Generally it isn't encouraged because it looks so different, but people have used it for broadcast before and I've seen Frame mode XL1 video on satellite TV channels occasionally. Who says you can't do it? __________________ CH Search DV Info Net \| 20 years of DVi \| ...Tuesday is Soylent Green Day!

March 12th, 2003, 06:52 PM	#3
Josh Bass Slash Rules! Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Houston, Texas Posts: 5,472	Oh. Thank God. I saw another post where someone advised someone else never to use frame mode if they intended it for broadcast. I don't remember them giving any reasons. What I shot was a skit, to be used within a show. Frame mode would make it look different from the rest of the show, and more like a short film. __________________ The Bass' camerawork The Bass on IMDB

March 12th, 2003, 08:39 PM	#4
Chris Hurd Obstreperous Rex Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: San Marcos, TX Posts: 27,369 Images: 513	It's probably good advice not to use Frame mode for broadcast, but that's a very different thing from whether or not you can do it. Can you? Yes. Should you? That's another question entirely. Hope this helps, __________________ CH Search DV Info Net \| 20 years of DVi \| ...Tuesday is Soylent Green Day!

March 12th, 2003, 09:08 PM	#5
Nathan Gifford Wrangler Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: Tickfaw, LA Posts: 1,217	There's a truckload of posts on this subject. Just do a search on frame mode. I guess that brings up the other question, should you avoid using deinterlace in post when planning to use the project for broadcast? __________________ Nathan Gifford Southern Cyclist Magazine & Productions For quick answers try our Search! To see me and Rob Lohman click here

March 12th, 2003, 10:57 PM	#6
Josh Bass Slash Rules! Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Houston, Texas Posts: 5,472	What if you don't want to deinterlace? __________________ The Bass' camerawork The Bass on IMDB

March 12th, 2003, 11:19 PM	#7
Frank Granovski Outer Circle Join Date: May 2002 Location: Hope, BC Posts: 7,524	Bruce Johnson has done docs in XL1 frame mode (for broadcast on PBS).

March 13th, 2003, 01:43 AM	#8
Josh Bass Slash Rules! Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Houston, Texas Posts: 5,472	Ah. Thank you sir. __________________ The Bass' camerawork The Bass on IMDB

March 13th, 2003, 07:06 AM	#9
Andre De Clercq Major Player Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Belgium Posts: 804	Nathan, if you are happy with reduced vertical resolution (halve if the deinterlacer is field repetition based) and halved temporal resolution (choppyness), then go on with deinterlacing your original (interlaced) footage in post. If you don't like to kill quality never deinterlace for broadcast apps.

March 13th, 2003, 10:34 AM	#10
Michael Chen Regular Crew Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Singapore Posts: 163	What if its not for broadcast? But we intend to show the video only on tv screen? I've read the frame mode vs normal mode thread , and many prefers the frame mode, does this still apply if we are gonna get it shown on tv sets?

March 13th, 2003, 11:14 AM	#11
Bill Markel Regular Crew Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Sicklerville, NJ Posts: 59	It was me Josh, I advised someone in another thread not to shoot an auto race in frame mode. Fast pans, which is basically all you do in race coverage, produce a jerky motion. This would become quite tiresome to watch after a short period of time. Can you shoot for TV in frame mode? Absolutely. But, if you have a lot of pans, zooms, and movement, the results will not be as pleasing. You really have to carefully plan out your shots. I love the look of frame mode, but if I plan on the shots having a lot of movement, I will not use it for broadcast. HTH Bill

March 13th, 2003, 03:41 PM	#12
Josh Bass Slash Rules! Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Houston, Texas Posts: 5,472	HMM. Food for thought. Thank you. __________________ The Bass' camerawork The Bass on IMDB

March 14th, 2003, 02:12 AM	#13
Andre De Clercq Major Player Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Belgium Posts: 804	Shooting in frame mode does result in jerkyness on fast motion but not allways in reduced vertical esolution. Some people apparently like this jerkyness and do associate it with "film look". The whole discussion about "frame mode", progressive shooting... becomes an old fashioned discussion, because modern diplays mostly use powerfull deinterlacers and manipulate the image data (remapping, gamma adaption,...). Even the jerkyness resulting from film footage is often being taken away by frame interpolation.

March 14th, 2003, 02:40 AM	#14
Josh Bass Slash Rules! Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Houston, Texas Posts: 5,472	You'd still see it in the theaters, right? Just not at home on TV shows shot on film, that's what you're saying? I don't notice it in theaters unless I look for it, so could I assume, within reason, that the casual viewer won't notice it? __________________ The Bass' camerawork The Bass on IMDB

March 14th, 2003, 07:56 AM	#15
Andre De Clercq Major Player Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Belgium Posts: 804	What I mean is that there is no longer a spacial (number of pixels, number of lines...) relation , nor a temporal (frames/fields per second... optical dutycycle..)relation between the original image and (depending on the display (CRT,LCD...) what is finally been seen. Everything gets optimized for "the best picture" within a specific display technology.