xlr adapter explaination?? at DVinfo.net

Michael Sweeney · May 18th, 2006, 04:11 AM

okay, well i'm alittle new to this film making and i just aquired an xl1s. i also got the ma-100 or at least i think that is the model number. it is the xlr adapter with 2 xlr inputs. anyways, i noticed it says "L" and "R" above the inputs. i know they stand for left and right and when i record audio it only records the left or right depending on what input i use. my questions are: can someone please explain how they use this xlr adapter? do you need two mics so it is not just one channel audio? is the adpater made mainly for things such as dialogue and in POST you just change the channel to center or something? please explain.

actually, if someone could be so kind to just explain the procedure of audio recording for films. this part always confused me.

thanks,
mike

Gareth Watkins · May 18th, 2006, 04:28 AM

Hi Mike

I'm not familiar with the XL1 but the Z1 I use gives an option to either record one channel only or, in the menus to mix both channels...No dount a Canon guy will be able to tell you if this is possible on the XL also.

To be honest I virtually always record one mic to one channel.... and a second to the other on the occasions when I use two mics...All my mics are mono, so there is no real advantage sound wise to having the same audio on both tracks.

This gives you much better options in post for mixing your audio levels... it is a simply process to fill the empty channel, or add the audio on two tracks to mix it correctly.

If I do use the audio on both tracks at once I set the volumes at different values, in case there is a really loud noise or something that can spoil the one track...

hope this helps

Gareth

Michael Sweeney · May 18th, 2006, 04:35 AM

so basically you want two mics then? so to record the left and right seperatly?

Don Palomaki · May 18th, 2006, 04:38 AM

The Canon MA-100 XLR adapter connects to the left and right channel audio input with the short cables with RCA connectors. The 2.5mm power lead conencts to the 5 vdc jack in the back of the handle. The R input connects to the right (red band plug) cable and the L jack connects to the left (white band plug) output cable only. Thus for stereo or two channels you need two mics (or use a "Y" adapter, or a stero mic).

The MA-100 uses integrated circuits (not a transformer) to do the balanced conversion, and provides about 6 dB gain. It is intended for mic-level signals and if you conencts line level signals to it it will overload and clip (distort) on peaks. It is suitable for use with all types of program material (voice, music, ambient sound) subject to keeping the peak signal input under around 0.1 volts.

Michael Sweeney · May 18th, 2006, 04:44 AM

okay...then as a filmmaker you guys are, how do you set up your audio recording? or if you had the ma-100 how would you set up the audio(settings in camera, mics...etc)??

Gareth Watkins · May 18th, 2006, 06:05 AM

Hi Mike
For simple on camera audio work this is how I do it...

1) For scenics I'll just use a shotgun on camera... into one channel.

2) For dialogue I use either a boom into one channel and perhaps a radio lav into another.

3) Or simply use the shotgun on camera for ambient into on channel and a radio lav on the talent into the other...

As I said you have more flexibility if you record things separately...

For ultimate flexibility especially if you envisage using more than two mics..you'll need to look at decent field mixer like a Sound Devices 302 or 442.

I use premiere pro and audition to work on the sound in post. I can duplicate the channels, adjust the audio output, mix and balance with ambient, background recordings, music etc..

Hope this helps

Gareth

Michael Sweeney · May 18th, 2006, 04:32 PM

just curious, i am not that fimiliar with audition, how would you duplicate the channels so it plays out of both speakers. what i really would like to accomplish is making a 5.1 surround sound dvd of a movie i film.

Michael Sweeney · May 18th, 2006, 04:36 PM

another thing, you talk about putting the shotgun mic on camera into one channel and the other into another channel, how do you accomplish this? i am sorry if my questions are annoying but i am trying to learn.

Gareth Watkins · May 19th, 2006, 01:04 AM

Hi Mike,
I've no idea about 5.1... just managing good quality mono is stretching me...I'm no expert, but my learning curve in audio has been higher than shooting as I've been a professional photographer for many year. And I now feel I'm getting there.
anyway....

Quote:

Originally Posted by Michael Sweeney

just curious, i am not that fimiliar with audition, how would you duplicate the channels so it plays out of both speakers. what i really would like to accomplish is making a 5.1 surround sound dvd of a movie i film.

It's easy to duplicate your mono both left and right... in PPro you just "fill" the missing channel in the effects. With Audition you can copy paste the track or use the "Convert Sample type"...function. This does not give you stereo, but dual mono.. and sounds fine.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Michael Sweeney

another thing, you talk about putting the shotgun mic on camera into one channel and the other into another channel, how do you accomplish this? i am sorry if my questions are annoying but i am trying to learn.

I sometimes use a shotgun for ambient and a radio lav for dialogue..interview for example. The Shotgun is simply plugged into Channel one and the radio receiver into the Channel two..keeping both separate...

In post I can mix down two separate audio tracks, one ambient and one vocal. I convert both in PPro filling either left or right channels as necessary. If the ambient is too loud I can drop the volume easily so the voice is audible.If I'd mixed channels in camera any loud ambient noise may have impaired the dialogue..keeping it separate I can remove it or turn it down..

I can then add a third audio track with music and a forth with ADR or whatever and so on...

With multiple tracks I've found you've got to be really careful about clipping... I always play the sequence and always keep the Audio mixer levels from touching the red...averaging around -6db gives me the best results...

Hope this helps

Gareth

Don Palomaki · May 19th, 2006, 04:34 PM

You want to do 5.1 audio? And you are asking how to connect a mono mic to the camcorder. That is a large jump in the level of knowledge required, and for that matter, many modest NLEs cannot do 5.1.

Do you have the manuals for the camcorder and MA-100? If not download them from the CanonDV webs site. They provide a starting point on how to connect the camcorder.

Suggest you spend some time in a library, plow thorugh back isues of magazines like Videomaker - read the stuff on audio.

Then visit the web sites of the mic manufacturer like Shure, Audio Technica. Read their reference documents, white papers , etc. Same for other manufactureres of quality audio gear.

Sounds like you would benefit from some over-the-shoulder help. Check if there is a Canon users group, or maybe video editing club near you, join in.

The 4-channel capabiliy of the XL series does give you a basis to do some neat 5.1 stuff, at least compared to other camcordes. But I suggest that you figure out how to do plain old mono and stereo well first.

Audition is Abobe's rebranding name for former "Cool Edit Pro" audio editing software. A good product with lots of capability.

Michael Sweeney · May 19th, 2006, 05:10 PM

maybe I have not clarified myself...okay I am not as novice as I think I am expressing...i know my way around the camera very well and I have been using adobe premiere for several years. I just never grasped audio very well. I am very computer savvy, I should be since I'm going to school for computers. anyways...so I'm not that much of an idiot.

my main questions were how professionals do it. I know how to hook up a mic but I wanted to know how others have theirs setup to compare with mine.

the 5.1 was a question because I have noticed it in premiere and never had the chance to mess around.

Don Palomaki · May 20th, 2006, 04:48 AM

Set-up is situation dependent. The sound setup depends on factors such as: what is the setting, what are the restrictions at the venue, what is the ambient sound, what audio effect do you want to achieve, will you overdub voice or mix in music in post, what is the sound source of interest, where is it relative to the camcorder/recorder, what gear do I have available (field mixer, separate audio recorder, mic assortment), is ambiend sound important or just for sync of studio sound later, crew size and skill, what can I afford to do (rent, buy, borrow) and so on.

How to meld all this together for a specific shoot is the subject of books. But in short all of the above ultimately end up in 1-to-4 audio cables that connect to the various XL series audio inputs. The camera is setup to best cope with the sound surces presented. You can do this directly to the unbalanced inputs on the XL1, being sure to select the proper input sensitivity and gain settings, or for balanced sources through an appropriate adapter. The MA-100 being and MA-200 being Canon's XLR adapters. There are a number of third party XLR adapters ofered as well - Beachtek, Studio1 and Sign Video are a few names in the moderate price range that you may encounter.

I usually shoot in 2-channel mode - 16-bit/48 kHz sample rate mode, although I have used 4-channel mode for some events, such as weddings where the additional channels (for more microphone inputs) are of greater value than the slight reduction in sound quality of the 4-channel mode. But using 4-channel sound presents problems for many NLE setups because they cannot capture 4-channel sound in one pass - a work-around may be necessary depending on the specifics of your system.

The suggestion that you read about audio still stands, and many of the publications do provide information on how prefesionals do sound for specific situations, often translated down to layman's terms and adapted to a modest budget.

Steve House · May 20th, 2006, 07:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Michael Sweeney

maybe I have not clarified myself...okay I am not as novice as I think I am expressing...i know my way around the camera very well and I have been using adobe premiere for several years. I just never grasped audio very well. I am very computer savvy, I should be since I'm going to school for computers. anyways...so I'm not that much of an idiot.

my main questions were how professionals do it. I know how to hook up a mic but I wanted to know how others have theirs setup to compare with mine.

the 5.1 was a question because I have noticed it in premiere and never had the chance to mess around.

In Premiere Pro or other NLEs and audio editing programs like Audition, a mono track can be "panned" with the track controls in the mixer to go to the left channel, right channel, or any blend of the two. Look on the mixer pane when in the editor. Audition 2 even allows for submix routing.

May 18th, 2006, 04:11 AM	#1
Michael Sweeney Regular Crew Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 97	xlr adapter explaination?? okay, well i'm alittle new to this film making and i just aquired an xl1s. i also got the ma-100 or at least i think that is the model number. it is the xlr adapter with 2 xlr inputs. anyways, i noticed it says "L" and "R" above the inputs. i know they stand for left and right and when i record audio it only records the left or right depending on what input i use. my questions are: can someone please explain how they use this xlr adapter? do you need two mics so it is not just one channel audio? is the adpater made mainly for things such as dialogue and in POST you just change the channel to center or something? please explain. actually, if someone could be so kind to just explain the procedure of audio recording for films. this part always confused me. thanks, mike

May 18th, 2006, 04:38 AM	#4
Don Palomaki Wrangler Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: Northern VA Posts: 4,488	The Canon MA-100 XLR adapter connects to the left and right channel audio input with the short cables with RCA connectors. The 2.5mm power lead conencts to the 5 vdc jack in the back of the handle. The R input connects to the right (red band plug) cable and the L jack connects to the left (white band plug) output cable only. Thus for stereo or two channels you need two mics (or use a "Y" adapter, or a stero mic). The MA-100 uses integrated circuits (not a transformer) to do the balanced conversion, and provides about 6 dB gain. It is intended for mic-level signals and if you conencts line level signals to it it will overload and clip (distort) on peaks. It is suitable for use with all types of program material (voice, music, ambient sound) subject to keeping the peak signal input under around 0.1 volts. __________________ dpalomaki@dspalomaki.com

May 19th, 2006, 04:34 PM	#10
Don Palomaki Wrangler Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: Northern VA Posts: 4,488	You want to do 5.1 audio? And you are asking how to connect a mono mic to the camcorder. That is a large jump in the level of knowledge required, and for that matter, many modest NLEs cannot do 5.1. Do you have the manuals for the camcorder and MA-100? If not download them from the CanonDV webs site. They provide a starting point on how to connect the camcorder. Suggest you spend some time in a library, plow thorugh back isues of magazines like Videomaker - read the stuff on audio. Then visit the web sites of the mic manufacturer like Shure, Audio Technica. Read their reference documents, white papers , etc. Same for other manufactureres of quality audio gear. Sounds like you would benefit from some over-the-shoulder help. Check if there is a Canon users group, or maybe video editing club near you, join in. The 4-channel capabiliy of the XL series does give you a basis to do some neat 5.1 stuff, at least compared to other camcordes. But I suggest that you figure out how to do plain old mono and stereo well first. Audition is Abobe's rebranding name for former "Cool Edit Pro" audio editing software. A good product with lots of capability. __________________ dpalomaki@dspalomaki.com

May 20th, 2006, 04:48 AM	#12
Don Palomaki Wrangler Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: Northern VA Posts: 4,488	Set-up is situation dependent. The sound setup depends on factors such as: what is the setting, what are the restrictions at the venue, what is the ambient sound, what audio effect do you want to achieve, will you overdub voice or mix in music in post, what is the sound source of interest, where is it relative to the camcorder/recorder, what gear do I have available (field mixer, separate audio recorder, mic assortment), is ambiend sound important or just for sync of studio sound later, crew size and skill, what can I afford to do (rent, buy, borrow) and so on. How to meld all this together for a specific shoot is the subject of books. But in short all of the above ultimately end up in 1-to-4 audio cables that connect to the various XL series audio inputs. The camera is setup to best cope with the sound surces presented. You can do this directly to the unbalanced inputs on the XL1, being sure to select the proper input sensitivity and gain settings, or for balanced sources through an appropriate adapter. The MA-100 being and MA-200 being Canon's XLR adapters. There are a number of third party XLR adapters ofered as well - Beachtek, Studio1 and Sign Video are a few names in the moderate price range that you may encounter. I usually shoot in 2-channel mode - 16-bit/48 kHz sample rate mode, although I have used 4-channel mode for some events, such as weddings where the additional channels (for more microphone inputs) are of greater value than the slight reduction in sound quality of the 4-channel mode. But using 4-channel sound presents problems for many NLE setups because they cannot capture 4-channel sound in one pass - a work-around may be necessary depending on the specifics of your system. The suggestion that you read about audio still stands, and many of the publications do provide information on how prefesionals do sound for specific situations, often translated down to layman's terms and adapted to a modest budget. __________________ dpalomaki@dspalomaki.com

May 18th, 2006, 04:28 AM	#2
Gareth Watkins Major Player Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: France Posts: 578	Hi Mike I'm not familiar with the XL1 but the Z1 I use gives an option to either record one channel only or, in the menus to mix both channels...No dount a Canon guy will be able to tell you if this is possible on the XL also. To be honest I virtually always record one mic to one channel.... and a second to the other on the occasions when I use two mics...All my mics are mono, so there is no real advantage sound wise to having the same audio on both tracks. This gives you much better options in post for mixing your audio levels... it is a simply process to fill the empty channel, or add the audio on two tracks to mix it correctly. If I do use the audio on both tracks at once I set the volumes at different values, in case there is a really loud noise or something that can spoil the one track... hope this helps Gareth

May 18th, 2006, 04:35 AM	#3
Michael Sweeney Regular Crew Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 97	so basically you want two mics then? so to record the left and right seperatly?

May 18th, 2006, 04:44 AM	#5
Michael Sweeney Regular Crew Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 97	okay...then as a filmmaker you guys are, how do you set up your audio recording? or if you had the ma-100 how would you set up the audio(settings in camera, mics...etc)??

May 18th, 2006, 06:05 AM	#6
Gareth Watkins Major Player Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: France Posts: 578	Hi Mike For simple on camera audio work this is how I do it... 1) For scenics I'll just use a shotgun on camera... into one channel. 2) For dialogue I use either a boom into one channel and perhaps a radio lav into another. 3) Or simply use the shotgun on camera for ambient into on channel and a radio lav on the talent into the other... As I said you have more flexibility if you record things separately... For ultimate flexibility especially if you envisage using more than two mics..you'll need to look at decent field mixer like a Sound Devices 302 or 442. I use premiere pro and audition to work on the sound in post. I can duplicate the channels, adjust the audio output, mix and balance with ambient, background recordings, music etc.. Hope this helps Gareth

May 18th, 2006, 04:32 PM	#7
Michael Sweeney Regular Crew Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 97	just curious, i am not that fimiliar with audition, how would you duplicate the channels so it plays out of both speakers. what i really would like to accomplish is making a 5.1 surround sound dvd of a movie i film.

May 18th, 2006, 04:36 PM	#8
Michael Sweeney Regular Crew Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 97	another thing, you talk about putting the shotgun mic on camera into one channel and the other into another channel, how do you accomplish this? i am sorry if my questions are annoying but i am trying to learn.

May 19th, 2006, 05:10 PM	#11
Michael Sweeney Regular Crew Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 97	maybe I have not clarified myself...okay I am not as novice as I think I am expressing...i know my way around the camera very well and I have been using adobe premiere for several years. I just never grasped audio very well. I am very computer savvy, I should be since I'm going to school for computers. anyways...so I'm not that much of an idiot. my main questions were how professionals do it. I know how to hook up a mic but I wanted to know how others have theirs setup to compare with mine. the 5.1 was a question because I have noticed it in premiere and never had the chance to mess around.