Replace the CCD?

[Sandy Kaye]

I'm a little isolated.. hadn't talked to many XL1 users. Have 2 of 'em since August '99. One probably has 100 hours, the other a bit less.
Mostly used 'em for studio shoots- not a lot of zooming, a lot of static blue screen talk show stuff, a few- maybe 20 hours - man on the street type stuff.
Just before shooting a non-profit documentary I noticed the focus 'slipping.' It'd go fuzzy after being focused on a subject. Pushing autofocus button would remedy it. I figured it needed a good cleaning, so I cleaned the lens' and put the 2 cams side by side and tested the backfocus, in exact same light conditions etc. Seemed to be ok. Decided to go ahead with the doc shoot. About midway thru the shoot the one with 100 hours started 'slipping' again. Light conditions not optimal (a bright peach schoolroom with mexican and african-am kids) so I figured it was that... But, it needed a pro cleaning and Canon servicing anyhow so I took it down there. THE GUY, STEVE AT THE CANON FRONT DESK, WAS REALLY HURRIED AND CARELESS AND DROPPED THE VIEWFINDER\MIC PIECE on the front desk as he was checking it in. I looked at him- I was astonished- and told him to CHILL. I NEVER TREATED MY CAMERA THAT WAY. He was sorry. I had him write down that he dropped it. I tell him it's in for it's regular service, and explain the focus slippage- which he hurriedly labels a 'backfocus' issue- no problem, they get it all the time- they'll adjust that and it'll be covered under the regular service. He calls a few days later and tells me the tech worked on it for 2 days and can't get the cam to adjust right in the software- the poooor tech got very frustrated- and they finally determined that I just need a new CCD. $700. (parts and labor) The CCD must've gotten damaged from the cam being dropped or bumped. (it wasn't from the desk incident, the top piece didn't hit the cam. but i never dropped it the cam body.)
HOW DO I KNOW I'M NOT BEING TREATED LIKE A NEWBIE NAIVE GIRL HERE? (i am female and this stuff happens alllll the time to girls.

Viewing the latest footage, the slippage does seem to be the varying light conditions- maybe defraction, improper exposure- even tho mostly using the auto setting (not the "easy" mode.) Whatever, I'm watching it slipping. But after reading this site for 5 hours- I've read everything about focus issues now - I DON'T KNOW what to think.

I need advice. Fast 'cause STEVE at Canon in Irvine wants an answer. He has offered to cut the labor ($240.00) price in half, just to be, uh, nice.

thanks...

[Jeff Donald]

You don't have to feel rushed. Tell, Steve, you're thinking about it and you'll get back to him. Don't feel bad, no technician works on just one camera for 2 days. They work till they get frustrated and move on to simpler jobs, then come back to the troublesome one. Its the way repairs work (I know, I used to own a repair business). What is the total cost he's quoting you, parts and labor? Ask about the warranty on the work done. If the problem still exists when you get the camera back, what will Canon do about it? You have the right to refuse the estimate. In that case Canon must reassemble the camera to a working condition (like the received it from you). This will allow you to do further tests and perhaps satisfy you curiosity about other possible causes.

In Canon's defense, I have found their service centers and personal to be completely trustworthy. If they said my camera needed that type of service I wouldn't question their personnel much further.

Cameras get a shock every time it gets set down hard or rolls off the car seat to the floor etc. It's little things that we all do, but don't really take particular notice of because it wasn't, that hard. After all the camera still powered up when we tried it. It's a cumulative effect of the day to day use and abuse that we all subject our equipment to. I wouldn't feel bad about this happening, it wasn't anything that you could have prevented. It happens from daily use and yours just happened sooner than some.

[Don Palomaki]

If you get the camera back, something to try: Since you have two lenses, try exchange them, see if that makes a differnce. If the focus slip follows the lens, it is likely a lens problem. If not it is likely in the body. (If the probelm goes away, maybe the lens got swapped somewhere along the line.) After the test, yo probably will want to return the lens to the original body.

In general, to help service folks understand the problem, it is a good idea to have sample footage. But your post sounds like they can see the issue - just can't make it go away Electroncis do age over time, and it may be that a critical piece has aged/drifted in value and now is out of tollerance causing the intermittent problem.

One other point, was not clear from your post if it happens in manual mode? Or if using a manual lens?

[Sandy Kaye]

I really like the lens swap idea. (I wonder why Cannon didn't suggest that it was a possibility- they know I have two. ) Is this something that you've heard of happenning?

I know electronics age over time, and that's why i'd love to know the rate of incidence for this problem. I searched this site but was unable to find anyone mentioning their CCD being replaced. That's why it's raised my suspicion. It's a pretty critical part to be going 'out' after 3 1\2 yrs. or is it?

I don't know if it happens in manual mode. We used to use manual all the time for the studio shoots but this latest stuff was all auto mode. I'm sorry now that I didn't test it in manual, but I guess it needs to be working in all modes anyhow. Not a manual lens- just the original lens that came with it outta the box.

It's just too expensive of a cam to have a repair that costs 1\4 of it's original price happen within the first 4 years. I think...

[Don Palomaki]

I believe that auto mode might cause a focus shifts if somethng moves thorugh or in the frame, if you zoom or pan, or perhaps even if there is a lighting change that effects the auto focus sensing zone.

I would not expect a CCD to fail in 3.5 years either, and have not read of it happening in any noticeable quantity. But different things will fail over time when you consider a large number of products shipped.

Lens swap is a way to help isolate whioh component is the problem. It may be part of the Canon service checkprotoco for focus problems. The main issue with keeping a camera and lens matched is to keep the correct backfocus setting.

[Sandy Kaye]

I checked my other XL1 against my purchase records and the original lens' are in fact with their original cam bodies.
bummer.
it was a great idea.

i'm going thru footage (still) with my documentary client\partner and the focus slippage is so intermittant-- i can't seem to find rhyme or reason or.. pattern.
so i'm afraid the CCD may really BE bad.

I don't know what to do next expect take the other cam down there and have 'em check it.
If the CCD is bad on THAT one (serial #'s are 1 apart), I may have something.

and I'm still really baffled the nobody else has had to have their CCD replaced.

much thanx for suggestions so far.

[Dean Sensui]

Unless there's something seriously wrong with the image from the camera then it can't be the CCD.

Autofocus needs a contrasty image with enough light to work reliably. I've seen focus problems come up even with good lighting. Could be the usual autofocus problems that have been plaguing the XL1 from the beginning.

For my own work I always turn the autofocus "off." In fact, I switch everything on the camera to manual, especially when the work is critical. That includes the audio circuit. It takes a lot more thought and effort to work that way but the results are a lot more predictable.

Dean Sensui
Base Two Productions

[Rik Sanchez]

I would guess Canon Japan and Canon USA have the same policy on their repair warranties, if that true, then from what the tech told me, there is a six month warranty on repairs to the camera. I had a new video head put in last year, and the audio was dropping out sometimes, they told me it was a loose connection where the mike plugs into the camera.

Last month the head went out again and so they replaced it for free and the camera still had some audio problems once in a great while, so they also replaced the mike for free. I was also told that when the camera comes in for service, they check everything so if you get repairs done once, if within six months anything goes wrong with the camera, (normal wear and tear, nothing the user did like dropping it), it will be under repair warranty and will be fixed free of charge. Take it in for a mike problem, a couple of months later, the head needs to be changed, it's covered by the repair warranty even though the camera was taken in for a mike problem.

Is this policy also true for Canon USA repair centers? I had to ask the tech several times to make sure I understood what he was saying. Canon also has Sony beat on repairs, Sony only offers a 3 month warranty, I missed that deadline by about a month so I gotta pay for that repair.

[Sandy Kaye]

There isn't anything seriously wrong with the image. And now that you bring up turning the audio auto off, I've gotten a lot clearer. Coming from an audio bckgnd, all I had to do was hear one time "oh, and don't ever use auto level on the mic, it'll just drop out for a few beats after a loud noise" and I never have used auto audio level since.
Really gets me thinking that I oughta just have 'em clean and adjust 'as best they can' (i'm trying to call to talk to the actual tech who's working on it) and see how it goes when I get it back.

I guess, if it's drastically worse when I get it back, I can look into what might have happenned to it while at Canon. I've got recent footage to do a b4 and after. I really hope that doesn't materialize..

What Rik says re their 6 mo. repair warranty sounds a little too good to be true. But if it is, it kind of adds a new dimension to the whole deal.

Really really appreciate the feedback.

[Don Palomaki]

If you haven't, be sure to join the Canon Owners Club (if in the USA), can save on annual maintenance and provide some other benefits.

If you can, run tests immediately to see if the auto modes were introducing the image issues you encountered. And do try get your hands on a manual lens to give it a try, see if it makes difference..

[Rik Sanchez]

Sandy,
the 6 month repair warranty is what I get here in Japan, I don't know how many months warranty you will get in the states, be sure to ask them about the 6 month warranty and if somethings breaks down again, if you have to pay.

Please post the answer Canon gives you, I'm sure other people would like to know also.

Hope your camera is okay.

[Jeff Donald]

The 6 months warranty on repairs is fairly standard among camera companies (Nikon, Minolta, Pentax etc). Electronic companies (Sony, Panasonic, Toshiba, sharp etc.) usually have more limitations on their warranties.

Most of the techs that work on the cameras are Japanese. In fact it's not uncommon for them to speak very little english. This has changed some in recent years. Not too long ago, 8 to 10 years ago, all the techs would have been Japanese. So don't be too surprised if you aren't allowed to talk to the tech.

[Rik Sanchez]

Lots of Japanese techs in the states, didn't know that. I thought most would be Americans. Every time I take my XL-1 in I ask the reception staff so many questions they always bring out the tech to talk to me. The last tech I spoke to knew a little English but it was pretty basic. I kept answering his questions in Japanese so he finally got the hint and explained everything in Japanese.

That must be a problem for people bringing in their cameras and want to speak with the tech who will do the repairs and then find out that they don't speak English.

But my dealings with the techs has been good, they are all very helpful and don't mind answering my questions, Japanese doctors on the other hand get pissed off when you question them.

I ought to give the techs some beer coupons next time I take in my XL-1, been very happy with the Canon service center.

[Sandy Kaye]

Spoke to a new rep. over in service. Turns out that Steve didn't give me the full info on why the ccd needs to be replaced.
The new guy I spoke to- very cool and knowledgeable and honest- explained that the screw holes holding the lens to the XL1 body are stripped.. badly. It could only have happenned from a severe trauma to the cam. Since I do remember feeling the lens a little loose, I have no doubts.
That explains a lot. Now I just need to get the client's insurance to cover it since I'm positive it happenned on that job.

FYI- the warranty, here in the states, is only 90 days. Which is a bummer to me. But on Rik's advice, I had 'em check out the mic and I think they're replacing it as part of the original deal.

It occured to me that someone may need a CCD unit, or one of the CCD's (there are 3 in the cam, as we all know!) that I will have extra. I don't know about the unit, as the stripped screw holes will be almost impossible to fix, and are built into the unit itself, but I think if there are pixel problems, a ccd replacement may be a fix.
I definitely would sell it to anyone who could use it.

So, I'll report more as the job progresses, for anyone interested.
Definitely appreciate all the feedback.

Sandy

[Rik Sanchez]

Only 90 days, that's as bad as Sony's.

Sandy, I'm glad you are getting a new mike, I hope you can get that clients ins. to cover the cost of the repairs. Replacing the CCD sounds like a pricey fix.