Need Audio advice on recording a singer at DVinfo.net

Dan Keaton · January 18th, 2003, 03:23 PM

I am relatively new to the XL1s.

I need to shoot a friend that happens to be a world-class Elvis impersonator, named Jeff. It will be in a lounge or on a stage with backup singers.

At this I have the regular canon on-board mike and one sennheiser Series 100 omni lavalier microphone, part of kit Ew-112p.

I do not have the MA-100 or the MA-200.

I can have wired access into the stage microphones that that Jeff will be wearing. Does it make sense for me to have him wear the lavalier?

I want very good quality sound, so it seems (from other posts) that 12-bit audio is not recommended.

I do have a cheap consumer grade mixer (Radio Shack) from 1980. It does not have xlr inputs, and I do not expect to use it, but I thought that I would mention it.

I assume it would be best not to use the on-board mike, as I might pick up too much of the audience. This would be ok, if I was using 4 channels, but I assume 16 bit sound will be recommended.

I prefer to do a good job for my friend, but I also do not want to spend a fortune.

I expect to do a lot of the shooting on a tripod, but I might need to do some hand-held shooting.

I welcome any advice or suggestions that you may have on both equipment to purchase and/or techniques and setup.

K. Forman · January 18th, 2003, 04:24 PM

I recommend having an audio recorder set up off of the house mixer, if at all possible. Then you just have to sync that to the video in post, but it will be much cleaner than the stuff you'll get with the camera.

If you can get a couple of inputs on your recorder, run the back up singers into seperate channels than the main singer. You can then make sure they aren't overpowering, and even put them in say the left chanel, with your main singer center and right channels for a more stereo like effect.
Keith

Dan Keaton · January 18th, 2003, 04:51 PM

Thank you for the suggestions.

K. Forman · January 19th, 2003, 05:42 AM

It really won't be that bad :)
Best of luck,
Keith

Dan Keaton · January 19th, 2003, 06:31 AM

Thank you for your support.

I ordered a second Sennheiser wireless lavalier mike last night, an EW112p, identical to the one I already have. I thought this would be handy in some circumstances and I would have a backup, which I may never need due to the quality of the Sennheiser equipment.

I assume that since I do not have the MA-100, MA-200 and that the normal output of the receiver is a stereo mini-plug (with the same signal on both left and right), I will need to rig up some connectors.

I would like to use one wireless on the left channel of Audio 1, and one on the right channel of Audio 1. Previously, since I only had one wireless mike, I used it in place of the on-board mike.

Since I am new, I am assuming that I need provide two adapters. Each adapter would have a female stereo mini-jack to a single mono RCA plug. This would allow me to connect one mike to the Left Channel of Audio 1 and the other wireless mike to the Right Channel of Audio 1. I would then need to select Audio 1 as input, for 16 bit audio and set the input levels appropriately (which I assume to be mike levels).

Of course, I could use Audio 2 under some circumstances when I also want to also record using the on-board mike.

Captain, Do I have this right, or is there a better way?

Thank you for your assistance.

K. Forman · January 19th, 2003, 09:48 AM

I'm not familiar with the wireless unit you are using, so I will make a general assumption (Forgive me for any errors that may occur). It has also been a while since I used the XL1s.

The wireless unit I have, allows you to use up to two mics, and will use each as either left or right, stereo if you only use one. There is one lead out, which is a stereo jack. You will need a stereo adaptor to plug into your auxillery audio input.

However, you also mentioned having a mixer? Does it have a recorder built in? If not, a small Dat recorder or Hard Disk recorder would be nice, and fairly cheap ($100 to $600, depending on the features). Use the wirless mics, and send this into the recorder.

Or, see if there isn't a way to send the house board into the mics, and send that to the receiver on the camera.

Ideally, I would keep the camera audio only for background noise and crowd reaction. And to help sync the cleaner audio to the video. Using the house board and mic is preferable to a lav, because of the extra noise that is likely to be introduced by bumping the mic, clothes ( Or cape) brushing against it, and any number of other problems waiting to happen.

I hope this helps.
Keith

Dan Keaton · January 19th, 2003, 10:34 AM

Thank you for your advice.

I just re-read the Sennheiser manual, and to the best of my knowledge, it is a single mike, mono, unit. The audio output from the receiver is via a stereo mini-plug.

The Radio Shack mixer was a $60 dollar unit that I obtained in 1980. I was called on to do an audio recording at the last minute of Ronald Regan while he was campaigning. I needed something in an hour or two, so I went to Radio Shack. It only has 1/4" phono plug inputs and outputs. I have not even turned it on in 20 years. It does not have any recording functions.

I will be using the XL1s, most of the time, for recording natural background sound of Drag Boat races. These are very loud and I expect that the on-camera mike will be adequate.

For my friends recording, I want something better. Also, I want to be able to do interviews, with two lavalier mikes, (two individuals), so I thought a second wireless mike was a good idea.

The input to the wireless transmitter is a stereo mini-plug. The tip is for mike level, the ring is line-in, and the sleeve is ground. So, I feel that I can rig up the transmitter to the house system, as you suggested. I will use one transmitter for each channel.

I have a laptop, which I assume could be used as a recorder. I also have a TEAC 4-track Reel to Reel recorder, but it is from 1969 and not very portable. I would like to do better. I want to avoid the loss of sync, time drift, so as to make post editing easy.

Would you recommend a hard disk recorder, or using the laptop. I feel that I would have to upgrade the laptop since I have only a 20 GB hard disk. One problem that I see is that I think I am restricted to only one hard disk drive in my Gateway 450SX4 laptop.

I assume from your posts that a proper separate audio recorder is superior in sound quality to the audio capabilities of the XL1s.

Do you have any specific recommendations for the audio recorder?

Thanks again for all of your time and suggestions.

Respectfully,

K. Forman · January 19th, 2003, 06:32 PM

I had a Korg d12 for recording my audio. It ran about $1,000, and did a fantastic job, holding up to 18 hrs of cd quality on one channel. It had 12 channels, and 4 imputs, 4 outputs, and an optional CD-R burner available.

It also had no battery, so it had to be plugged in. The last time I used it, was at an outdoor concert. It worked great, as long as the power was on. However, the breaker kept flipping, and I lost all of the audio from the first set.

What ever you decide on, be sure it has battery back-up. Even a cassette recorder might work.
Keith

Dan Keaton · January 20th, 2003, 07:35 AM

Thank you, I appreciate your advice.

Ivan Hedley Enger · January 27th, 2003, 10:14 AM

HD recorder was mentioned here as an option. I guess a laptop would do the job as well, and it shouldn´t need to be such a big HD either? But, can anyone suggest a good software for the recording. (Not too expencive - $100-300).

Ivan

Sandy Kaye · February 10th, 2003, 01:10 AM

A mini disc (Sony) recorder is a good way to go for field recording. Much cheaper than a laptop, or portable DAT (digital audio tape) and the removable and storeable media is high end.

You want to make sure you buy one with inputs! I think I saw one at a Circuit City that plays only.

Use a 2 pop== any kind of loud sharp sound recorded on the video and audio units== to synch in post.

hope it's not too late for the help.

January 18th, 2003, 03:23 PM	#1
Dan Keaton Inner Circle Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Augusta Georgia Posts: 5,421	Need Audio advice on recording a singer I am relatively new to the XL1s. I need to shoot a friend that happens to be a world-class Elvis impersonator, named Jeff. It will be in a lounge or on a stage with backup singers. At this I have the regular canon on-board mike and one sennheiser Series 100 omni lavalier microphone, part of kit Ew-112p. I do not have the MA-100 or the MA-200. I can have wired access into the stage microphones that that Jeff will be wearing. Does it make sense for me to have him wear the lavalier? I want very good quality sound, so it seems (from other posts) that 12-bit audio is not recommended. I do have a cheap consumer grade mixer (Radio Shack) from 1980. It does not have xlr inputs, and I do not expect to use it, but I thought that I would mention it. I assume it would be best not to use the on-board mike, as I might pick up too much of the audience. This would be ok, if I was using 4 channels, but I assume 16 bit sound will be recommended. I prefer to do a good job for my friend, but I also do not want to spend a fortune. I expect to do a lot of the shooting on a tripod, but I might need to do some hand-held shooting. I welcome any advice or suggestions that you may have on both equipment to purchase and/or techniques and setup. __________________ Dan Keaton Augusta Georgia

January 18th, 2003, 04:51 PM	#3
Dan Keaton Inner Circle Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Augusta Georgia Posts: 5,421	Thank you for the suggestions. __________________ Dan Keaton Augusta Georgia

January 19th, 2003, 06:31 AM	#5
Dan Keaton Inner Circle Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Augusta Georgia Posts: 5,421	Thank you for your support. I ordered a second Sennheiser wireless lavalier mike last night, an EW112p, identical to the one I already have. I thought this would be handy in some circumstances and I would have a backup, which I may never need due to the quality of the Sennheiser equipment. I assume that since I do not have the MA-100, MA-200 and that the normal output of the receiver is a stereo mini-plug (with the same signal on both left and right), I will need to rig up some connectors. I would like to use one wireless on the left channel of Audio 1, and one on the right channel of Audio 1. Previously, since I only had one wireless mike, I used it in place of the on-board mike. Since I am new, I am assuming that I need provide two adapters. Each adapter would have a female stereo mini-jack to a single mono RCA plug. This would allow me to connect one mike to the Left Channel of Audio 1 and the other wireless mike to the Right Channel of Audio 1. I would then need to select Audio 1 as input, for 16 bit audio and set the input levels appropriately (which I assume to be mike levels). Of course, I could use Audio 2 under some circumstances when I also want to also record using the on-board mike. Captain, Do I have this right, or is there a better way? Thank you for your assistance. __________________ Dan Keaton Augusta Georgia

January 19th, 2003, 10:34 AM	#7
Dan Keaton Inner Circle Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Augusta Georgia Posts: 5,421	Thank you for your advice. I just re-read the Sennheiser manual, and to the best of my knowledge, it is a single mike, mono, unit. The audio output from the receiver is via a stereo mini-plug. The Radio Shack mixer was a $60 dollar unit that I obtained in 1980. I was called on to do an audio recording at the last minute of Ronald Regan while he was campaigning. I needed something in an hour or two, so I went to Radio Shack. It only has 1/4" phono plug inputs and outputs. I have not even turned it on in 20 years. It does not have any recording functions. I will be using the XL1s, most of the time, for recording natural background sound of Drag Boat races. These are very loud and I expect that the on-camera mike will be adequate. For my friends recording, I want something better. Also, I want to be able to do interviews, with two lavalier mikes, (two individuals), so I thought a second wireless mike was a good idea. The input to the wireless transmitter is a stereo mini-plug. The tip is for mike level, the ring is line-in, and the sleeve is ground. So, I feel that I can rig up the transmitter to the house system, as you suggested. I will use one transmitter for each channel. I have a laptop, which I assume could be used as a recorder. I also have a TEAC 4-track Reel to Reel recorder, but it is from 1969 and not very portable. I would like to do better. I want to avoid the loss of sync, time drift, so as to make post editing easy. Would you recommend a hard disk recorder, or using the laptop. I feel that I would have to upgrade the laptop since I have only a 20 GB hard disk. One problem that I see is that I think I am restricted to only one hard disk drive in my Gateway 450SX4 laptop. I assume from your posts that a proper separate audio recorder is superior in sound quality to the audio capabilities of the XL1s. Do you have any specific recommendations for the audio recorder? Thanks again for all of your time and suggestions. Respectfully, __________________ Dan Keaton Augusta Georgia

January 20th, 2003, 07:35 AM	#9
Dan Keaton Inner Circle Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Augusta Georgia Posts: 5,421	Thank you, I appreciate your advice. __________________ Dan Keaton Augusta Georgia

January 18th, 2003, 04:24 PM	#2
K. Forman Capt. Quirk Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Middle of the woods in Georgia Posts: 3,596	I recommend having an audio recorder set up off of the house mixer, if at all possible. Then you just have to sync that to the video in post, but it will be much cleaner than the stuff you'll get with the camera. If you can get a couple of inputs on your recorder, run the back up singers into seperate channels than the main singer. You can then make sure they aren't overpowering, and even put them in say the left chanel, with your main singer center and right channels for a more stereo like effect. Keith

January 19th, 2003, 05:42 AM	#4
K. Forman Capt. Quirk Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Middle of the woods in Georgia Posts: 3,596	It really won't be that bad :) Best of luck, Keith

January 19th, 2003, 09:48 AM	#6
K. Forman Capt. Quirk Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Middle of the woods in Georgia Posts: 3,596	I'm not familiar with the wireless unit you are using, so I will make a general assumption (Forgive me for any errors that may occur). It has also been a while since I used the XL1s. The wireless unit I have, allows you to use up to two mics, and will use each as either left or right, stereo if you only use one. There is one lead out, which is a stereo jack. You will need a stereo adaptor to plug into your auxillery audio input. However, you also mentioned having a mixer? Does it have a recorder built in? If not, a small Dat recorder or Hard Disk recorder would be nice, and fairly cheap ($100 to $600, depending on the features). Use the wirless mics, and send this into the recorder. Or, see if there isn't a way to send the house board into the mics, and send that to the receiver on the camera. Ideally, I would keep the camera audio only for background noise and crowd reaction. And to help sync the cleaner audio to the video. Using the house board and mic is preferable to a lav, because of the extra noise that is likely to be introduced by bumping the mic, clothes ( Or cape) brushing against it, and any number of other problems waiting to happen. I hope this helps. Keith

January 19th, 2003, 06:32 PM	#8
K. Forman Capt. Quirk Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Middle of the woods in Georgia Posts: 3,596	I had a Korg d12 for recording my audio. It ran about $1,000, and did a fantastic job, holding up to 18 hrs of cd quality on one channel. It had 12 channels, and 4 imputs, 4 outputs, and an optional CD-R burner available. It also had no battery, so it had to be plugged in. The last time I used it, was at an outdoor concert. It worked great, as long as the power was on. However, the breaker kept flipping, and I lost all of the audio from the first set. What ever you decide on, be sure it has battery back-up. Even a cassette recorder might work. Keith

January 27th, 2003, 10:14 AM	#10
Ivan Hedley Enger Regular Crew Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Vestfold in Norway Posts: 103	HD recorder was mentioned here as an option. I guess a laptop would do the job as well, and it shouldn´t need to be such a big HD either? But, can anyone suggest a good software for the recording. (Not too expencive - $100-300). Ivan

February 10th, 2003, 01:10 AM	#11
Sandy Kaye New Boot Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Silverlake, CA Posts: 16	A mini disc (Sony) recorder is a good way to go for field recording. Much cheaper than a laptop, or portable DAT (digital audio tape) and the removable and storeable media is high end. You want to make sure you buy one with inputs! I think I saw one at a Circuit City that plays only. Use a 2 pop== any kind of loud sharp sound recorded on the video and audio units== to synch in post. hope it's not too late for the help. __________________ i've seen evil and it's name is pc