12 bit & 16 bit - Noticeable quality difference?

Don Palomaki · June 5th, 2007, 08:19 AM

What end result are you trying to achieve with your sound? What is the program material, what is the end product? Can your NLE cope with 4-channel sound? Those will drive the best option for your audio recording.

To use both a wireless and the stock mic at the same time, connect the MA-100 to the Audio 2 jacks on the side of the handle, and its power cord to the 5 VDC jack on the back. Use the 12-bit - ST-1/ST-2 mode, set the Audio 2 input to MIC ATT for starters. Keep the Audio 1 input switch set to MIC (or mic ATT as necessary). Connect the wireless to the MA-100 using a balanced output. (Alternatively you could connect the wireless directly to the Audio-2 input if you like.)

You should get the wireless on one of the ST-2 channels depending on where you connected it to the MA-100. Don't forget to adjust the metering and head phone monitoring to the source of interest when shooting.

Jeff Mayne · June 5th, 2007, 09:07 AM

That is what I am looking for, all I want to do is to be able to put a wireless mic on the hunter, and have the stock mic to pick up surrounding noise, like the animal moving, birds chirping and so on. I am using Premiere Pro 1.5 so it should be able to handle the audio, shouldn't it? I will hook it up and give it a shot and will let you know how it works! Thanks!!!
Jeff

Jeff Mayne · June 7th, 2007, 09:16 PM

Don, what is mic att? and when I plug in my headphones to listen to the incoming audio, will I be able to pick up the onboard and the wireless at the same time or will I need to make some sort of modification? Thanks for all the help, if you ever get around Iowa I will buy you dinner! Oh, also when I go to import into Adobe Premiere Pro 1.5 will this capture all of the audio I have recorded, or will I have to purchase scenalyzer?

James Emory · June 8th, 2007, 12:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeff Mayne

That is what I am looking for, all I want to do is to be able to put a wireless mic on the hunter, and have the stock mic to pick up surrounding noise, like the animal moving, birds chirping and so on. I am using Premiere Pro 1.5 so it should be able to handle the audio, shouldn't it? ...

You're creating alot of extra work by using the on-camera mic in the mix. I would use a self powered shotgun mic for natural sound on one channel and the hunter on the other through the MA-100/200, then you will only need to use two channels at 16 bit. Premiere can easily seperate these channels in the timeline.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeff Mayne

Don, what is mic att?

That is mic attenuation and it gives you more headroom for sound that would ordinarily be off the chart.

Don Palomaki · June 8th, 2007, 04:59 AM

The MIC ATT setting reduces the sensitivity of the input by 20 dB compared to the MIC setting. Use it to avoid distortion with high output mics and loud venues, and perhaps to manage AGC gain pumping when using AGC. Use good headphones to judge when to use it, at least until you get a feel for how it works with your mics and venues.

The perhaps major benefit of using the on camera mic for ambient sound in 4-channel mode is your ambient sound will be stereo, if you want that effect.

Jeff Mayne · June 8th, 2007, 09:40 AM

Alright! Got everything hooked up and it seems to be working ok! However, is there only supposed to be sound in one earphone when I listen to the wireless mics? I have everything set up as directed and when I monitor ST-2 I only get a response in one channel and in one side of the earphones? Also the mic sound is soft but the channel is going over 12db on the monitor. Any ideas?

Jarrod Whaley · June 8th, 2007, 10:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeff Mayne

Alright! Got everything hooked up and it seems to be working ok! However, is there only supposed to be sound in one earphone when I listen to the wireless mics? I have everything set up as directed and when I monitor ST-2 I only get a response in one channel and in one side of the earphones? Also the mic sound is soft but the channel is going over 12db on the monitor. Any ideas?

If you're only recording w/ the wireless to one channel, then you'll only hear one channel--left if track 3, right if track 4. This is completely normal. You can double the track in post-production so that it will come out of both speakers.

As for your second question, I'm assuming that the mic output seems to sound lower because you're only hearing it in one ear. Definitely set your level based on what you're seeing on the meter.

James Emory · June 8th, 2007, 11:46 AM

Another thing when using 3 to 4 channels is that you have to hit the monitor button several times to cycle the display to check levels for channel 1 and 2, then 3 and 4. It can get real confusing.

Don Palomaki · June 8th, 2007, 12:09 PM

As to how loud the earphones sound, some brands/models of headphones are not very efficient and will not sound very loud, even if the headphone volume control is set to max, with normally recorded material.. You need to be sure your headphones are reasonably well matched to the output of the XL1 headphone jack.

Jeff Mayne · June 8th, 2007, 12:16 PM

I have a set of Sennheiser headphones and the volume jacked up on the camera. I did go into the transmitter settings and set the sensitivety setting to -20db and it seems to sound much better. Should I leave the two selector switches under the white flap turned to auto for ST1 and ST2, or manual and control the input myself? I do notice on the audio monitor on the camera that the bars are going above 12 is that acceptable? The normal range is well below 12 but if you cough, or raise your voice than it goes it significantly but the Senn Receiver does not peg out only on the audio monitor on the camera. Guess I can run a test recording and see how it sounds on playback. Oh, also, is there a certain freq I should be setting to? I am just using Bank 1... Thanks alot for the input everyone, you are making this alot easier!

Jeff Mayne · June 8th, 2007, 12:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by James Emory

You're creating alot of extra work by using the on-camera mic in the mix. I would use a self powered shotgun mic for natural sound on one channel and the hunter on the other through the MA-100/200, then you will only need to use two channels at 16 bit. Premiere can easily seperate these channels in the timeline.

James, can a self powered mic be mounted to the camera where the stock mic is mounted? And if so, what mic do you recommend? Also what do you mean by self powered, batteries in the mic itself? Thanks,

James Emory · June 8th, 2007, 01:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeff Mayne

I did go into the transmitter settings and set the sensitivety setting to -20db and it seems to sound much better.

-20 dB is usually set on the camera, not the source. The sound guys send tone from their mixers and set the level on the camera at -20 dB as a constant. They actually ride the levels of all of the mics with their own mixer that is attached to the camera by cable or wireless transmitter. If you ever get to work with a sound guy, you will appreciate them alot more and wonder how you ever worked without them.

When monitoring audio yourself, 12 is where the meters need to stay or be slightly below. It is sometimes called the unity mark or level. When setting levels for speakers, have them talk as usual to get an idea of their voices average level. It's something you'll just have to monitor the whole time if you don't have a sound guy.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeff Mayne

James, can a self powered mic be mounted to the camera where the stock mic is mounted? And if so, what mic do you recommend? Also what do you mean by self powered, batteries in the mic itself? Thanks,

I don't know about the models after the XL-1 but it doesn't provide phantom power so your mic has to have its own power or circuit to provide sound through the MA-100/200.

Jeff Mayne · June 9th, 2007, 12:06 AM

James. there is an actual sensitivety setting on the Sennheiser transmitter that can be set to -10db, -20 db, or -30db depending on the amount of ambient noise or background noise. Is there an output setting on the Sennheiser Receiver to control the amount of input being sent to the camera or how do I control the over modulation that seems to be happening on the camera meter? Do you understand my question? Thanks,

James Emory · June 10th, 2007, 06:12 PM

The question is, do you understand? I don't know anything about the wireless system you have. There might be a set screw somewhere to adjust the receiver's levels. I just said in post #27 that levels are usually set on the camera. Just have your on camera person speak as he normally would for about 5-10 seconds and set a level on the camera. If he's going to be hunting out in the woods, he's probably not going to be talking too loud but if he does something exciting and starts speaking normally you had better be ready to adjust the levels.

Don Palomaki · June 11th, 2007, 07:21 AM

Quote:

how do I control the over modulation that seems to be happening on the camera meter?

Over modulation is usually an issue with the transmitter, and the transmitter adjustment compensates for hot mics and loud venues. Adjust it using headphones connected to the receiver to ensure that you do not hear any distortion with the loudest sounds you want to capture distortion free.

Once you have set the transmitter level to be distortion free, set the receiver output level and camcorder input sensitivity to provide the desired record level. You will have to consult the wireless receiver manual as to its settings capability. In general, you want to receiver output level to reasonably match the camcorder input sensitivity. Most receiver "MIC" output levels are a good match to the XL1's MIC or MIC ATT sensitivity setting. MIC ATT is a preferred setting if you get enough output from the receiver to use it.

You have to run your own tests to decide which works best for you in your planned shooting situation.

June 5th, 2007, 08:19 AM	#16
Don Palomaki Wrangler Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: Northern VA Posts: 4,489	What end result are you trying to achieve with your sound? What is the program material, what is the end product? Can your NLE cope with 4-channel sound? Those will drive the best option for your audio recording. To use both a wireless and the stock mic at the same time, connect the MA-100 to the Audio 2 jacks on the side of the handle, and its power cord to the 5 VDC jack on the back. Use the 12-bit - ST-1/ST-2 mode, set the Audio 2 input to MIC ATT for starters. Keep the Audio 1 input switch set to MIC (or mic ATT as necessary). Connect the wireless to the MA-100 using a balanced output. (Alternatively you could connect the wireless directly to the Audio-2 input if you like.) You should get the wireless on one of the ST-2 channels depending on where you connected it to the MA-100. Don't forget to adjust the metering and head phone monitoring to the source of interest when shooting. __________________ dpalomaki@dspalomaki.com

June 5th, 2007, 09:07 AM	#17
Jeff Mayne Regular Crew Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Worthington, Iowa Posts: 191	That is what I am looking for, all I want to do is to be able to put a wireless mic on the hunter, and have the stock mic to pick up surrounding noise, like the animal moving, birds chirping and so on. I am using Premiere Pro 1.5 so it should be able to handle the audio, shouldn't it? I will hook it up and give it a shot and will let you know how it works! Thanks!!! Jeff __________________ Jeff Mayne Gone Thinkin Outdoors

June 7th, 2007, 09:16 PM	#18
Jeff Mayne Regular Crew Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Worthington, Iowa Posts: 191	Don, what is mic att? and when I plug in my headphones to listen to the incoming audio, will I be able to pick up the onboard and the wireless at the same time or will I need to make some sort of modification? Thanks for all the help, if you ever get around Iowa I will buy you dinner! Oh, also when I go to import into Adobe Premiere Pro 1.5 will this capture all of the audio I have recorded, or will I have to purchase scenalyzer? __________________ Jeff Mayne Gone Thinkin Outdoors

June 8th, 2007, 04:59 AM	#20
Don Palomaki Wrangler Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: Northern VA Posts: 4,489	The MIC ATT setting reduces the sensitivity of the input by 20 dB compared to the MIC setting. Use it to avoid distortion with high output mics and loud venues, and perhaps to manage AGC gain pumping when using AGC. Use good headphones to judge when to use it, at least until you get a feel for how it works with your mics and venues. The perhaps major benefit of using the on camera mic for ambient sound in 4-channel mode is your ambient sound will be stereo, if you want that effect. __________________ dpalomaki@dspalomaki.com

June 8th, 2007, 09:40 AM	#21
Jeff Mayne Regular Crew Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Worthington, Iowa Posts: 191	Alright! Got everything hooked up and it seems to be working ok! However, is there only supposed to be sound in one earphone when I listen to the wireless mics? I have everything set up as directed and when I monitor ST-2 I only get a response in one channel and in one side of the earphones? Also the mic sound is soft but the channel is going over 12db on the monitor. Any ideas? __________________ Jeff Mayne Gone Thinkin Outdoors

June 8th, 2007, 11:46 AM	#23
James Emory Regular Crew Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Atlanta, Georgia Posts: 1,892	Another thing when using 3 to 4 channels is that you have to hit the monitor button several times to cycle the display to check levels for channel 1 and 2, then 3 and 4. It can get real confusing.

June 8th, 2007, 12:09 PM	#24
Don Palomaki Wrangler Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: Northern VA Posts: 4,489	As to how loud the earphones sound, some brands/models of headphones are not very efficient and will not sound very loud, even if the headphone volume control is set to max, with normally recorded material.. You need to be sure your headphones are reasonably well matched to the output of the XL1 headphone jack. __________________ dpalomaki@dspalomaki.com

June 8th, 2007, 12:16 PM	#25
Jeff Mayne Regular Crew Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Worthington, Iowa Posts: 191	I have a set of Sennheiser headphones and the volume jacked up on the camera. I did go into the transmitter settings and set the sensitivety setting to -20db and it seems to sound much better. Should I leave the two selector switches under the white flap turned to auto for ST1 and ST2, or manual and control the input myself? I do notice on the audio monitor on the camera that the bars are going above 12 is that acceptable? The normal range is well below 12 but if you cough, or raise your voice than it goes it significantly but the Senn Receiver does not peg out only on the audio monitor on the camera. Guess I can run a test recording and see how it sounds on playback. Oh, also, is there a certain freq I should be setting to? I am just using Bank 1... Thanks alot for the input everyone, you are making this alot easier! __________________ Jeff Mayne Gone Thinkin Outdoors

June 9th, 2007, 12:06 AM	#28
Jeff Mayne Regular Crew Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Worthington, Iowa Posts: 191	James. there is an actual sensitivety setting on the Sennheiser transmitter that can be set to -10db, -20 db, or -30db depending on the amount of ambient noise or background noise. Is there an output setting on the Sennheiser Receiver to control the amount of input being sent to the camera or how do I control the over modulation that seems to be happening on the camera meter? Do you understand my question? Thanks, __________________ Jeff Mayne Gone Thinkin Outdoors

June 10th, 2007, 06:12 PM	#29
James Emory Regular Crew Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Atlanta, Georgia Posts: 1,892	The question is, do you understand? I don't know anything about the wireless system you have. There might be a set screw somewhere to adjust the receiver's levels. I just said in post #27 that levels are usually set on the camera. Just have your on camera person speak as he normally would for about 5-10 seconds and set a level on the camera. If he's going to be hunting out in the woods, he's probably not going to be talking too loud but if he does something exciting and starts speaking normally you had better be ready to adjust the levels.