XL2 vs XL1s -XL1 is better? at DVinfo.net

Alex Rodriguez · July 25th, 2005, 07:05 AM

Hi all -
I have been using the XL1s for 2 years. I have always used it with the manual 16x servo zoom lens (not the one it comes with) and have always loved it! when the XL2 came out I bought it right away...and though it has cool features...the most important part SUCKS!!! - the image... the image of the XL2 is really bad...is not as crisp and warm and colorfull as the XL1s. and I am having a problem I never had with the XL1s (considering I am using the X16 manual servo zoom lens) - every once in a while the focus gets soft...even though I am on manual shoot and everything is manual...and that's even when the lens is zoom wide out. it's so anoying and nothing seems to help.
has anyone compated the images of the XL1 and XL2 - can you see the difference?

Alex Rodriguez

Jay Gladwell · July 25th, 2005, 07:23 AM

Alex, sorry to hear you're having problems.

I've used the XL1, the XL1s and the XL2. I'm not having the problems with image quality you seem to be having. In fact, my experience has been just the opposite. The images I'm getting are sharp and brilliant.

Jay

Patrick King · July 25th, 2005, 07:35 AM

Alex,

I haven't had my XL2 as long as you've had yours, but I think the focus and color are as good as the XL1 and XL1s, both of which I've got more experience with than the XL2. But, having compared imagery from the XL2 and the XL1s, both with the stock lens, I think focus in auto is better in the XL2 and focus in manual is as good in the XL2.

Of course Alex, my stock lens may not be a good comparison. Likewise, at my limited talent level, I may not be pushing the art as far as you or demanding as much perfection. Sorry if my experience doesn't help, but I've not seen what you are experiencing.

Mathieu Ghekiere · July 25th, 2005, 12:14 PM

Alex,

I don't have the XL2, only the XL1s, but from what I read, the colors on the XL2 are more neutral (read: less warm, less saturated) but the XL2 should give you a superiour image, and with the image settings you should be able to tweak it to look like an XL1s.

Good luck!

Ash Greyson · July 25th, 2005, 12:54 PM

I hear this over and over... amazing how peoples eyes get spoiled and how a superior clear image can look flat or milky. What you are noticing is not a lack of color it is the vast improvement in detail across all ranges. I have used the XL1, XL1s and XL2 since literally the day each came out. They all look different out of the box, the XL1s, like the DVX, has more poppy colors that are broadcast ILLEGAL and result in a loss in detail in dark and light areas. If you are after this look in your XL2, it can be achieved, just set the knew to high, the black to press, up the color saturation a couple notches and the master pedestal and setup level DOWN several notches. You may also want to turn down the sharpness...

ash =o)

Charles Papert · July 25th, 2005, 02:25 PM

Sounds like your focus issues may be related to back focus? Have you adjusted the back focus lever on the 16x lens?

Bill Porter · July 25th, 2005, 09:09 PM

Ash (or whomever),

What exactly are the ramifications of "broadcast illegal" colors? Your vid cannot and will not be aired on television, or, it's less likely, or, it will just look bad?

Mathieu Ghekiere · July 26th, 2005, 07:11 AM

I think because he means they are maybe beautiful to look at in a filmic point of view, but they are not realistic.
(Don't know sure, just a guess)

Patrick King · July 26th, 2005, 08:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bill Porter

What exactly are the ramifications of "broadcast illegal" colors? Your vid cannot and will not be aired on television, or, it's less likely, or, it will just look bad?

Bill & Mathieu,

This has to do with the the blacks at the bottom end of the color curve through the whites at the top end. If you were to look at the colors from a 'broadcast legal' image displaying color bars on a waveform monitor, you would see that each color produces a band in a certain range. If the colors are boosted in the camera to see the 'poppy' imagery Ash was referring to, they would then exceed the range permitted for broadcast. If these illegal colors were broadcast, they would interfere with the audio portion of the broadcast (there is only so much bandwidth/frequency alloted for transmission of a TV signal, and the illegal colors would be encroaching on the portion reserved to audio).

The good news is that most video editors have a filter to achieve 'broadcast legal' colors if you are outputting to TV for over-the-airwaves broadcast. If you are just going to burn a DVD for your home consumption, then at worst you might see some blooming.

Richard Alvarez · July 26th, 2005, 09:40 AM

Alex,

I've posted this before, but I just finished post production on a documentary I shot with an Xl1 and an Xl2. I can honestly say, that I found the images from the Xl2 to be both sharper, and more saturated 'out of the box' than the images from the xl1.

And I agree with Charles, it sounds like you have some back focus issues with the 16x manual. I shoot with the same lens, and make a point to check it each time I get ready for a session.

Mathieu Ghekiere · July 27th, 2005, 08:07 AM

Thanks for clearing that up, Patrick.

Ash Greyson · August 1st, 2005, 05:12 PM

The colors you see on your DV tape will not always translate. Shoot something red with an XL1s or DVX100, dump it to your NLE and output it to VHS. Then play it back on an analog TV... YIKES!!!!! This can be corrected in post but as I said, you will lose some clarity versus shooting it legal to begin with...

ash =o)

July 25th, 2005, 07:05 AM	#1
Alex Rodriguez Tourist Join Date: Jul 2005 Posts: 1	XL2 vs XL1s -XL1 is better? Hi all - I have been using the XL1s for 2 years. I have always used it with the manual 16x servo zoom lens (not the one it comes with) and have always loved it! when the XL2 came out I bought it right away...and though it has cool features...the most important part SUCKS!!! - the image... the image of the XL2 is really bad...is not as crisp and warm and colorfull as the XL1s. and I am having a problem I never had with the XL1s (considering I am using the X16 manual servo zoom lens) - every once in a while the focus gets soft...even though I am on manual shoot and everything is manual...and that's even when the lens is zoom wide out. it's so anoying and nothing seems to help. has anyone compated the images of the XL1 and XL2 - can you see the difference? Alex Rodriguez

July 25th, 2005, 07:35 AM	#3
Patrick King Major Player Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: Enterprise, AL Posts: 857	Alex, I haven't had my XL2 as long as you've had yours, but I think the focus and color are as good as the XL1 and XL1s, both of which I've got more experience with than the XL2. But, having compared imagery from the XL2 and the XL1s, both with the stock lens, I think focus in auto is better in the XL2 and focus in manual is as good in the XL2. Of course Alex, my stock lens may not be a good comparison. Likewise, at my limited talent level, I may not be pushing the art as far as you or demanding as much perfection. Sorry if my experience doesn't help, but I've not seen what you are experiencing. __________________ Fear No Weevil!

July 25th, 2005, 02:25 PM	#6
Charles Papert Wrangler Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Los Angeles, CA Posts: 6,810	Sounds like your focus issues may be related to back focus? Have you adjusted the back focus lever on the 16x lens? __________________ Charles Papert www.charlespapert.com

July 25th, 2005, 07:23 AM	#2
Jay Gladwell Join Date: Jul 2002 Posts: 1,244	Alex, sorry to hear you're having problems. I've used the XL1, the XL1s and the XL2. I'm not having the problems with image quality you seem to be having. In fact, my experience has been just the opposite. The images I'm getting are sharp and brilliant. Jay

July 25th, 2005, 12:14 PM	#4
Mathieu Ghekiere Inner Circle Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Belgium Posts: 2,195	Alex, I don't have the XL2, only the XL1s, but from what I read, the colors on the XL2 are more neutral (read: less warm, less saturated) but the XL2 should give you a superiour image, and with the image settings you should be able to tweak it to look like an XL1s. Good luck!

July 25th, 2005, 12:54 PM	#5
Ash Greyson Trustee Join Date: May 2003 Location: Tulsa, OK Posts: 1,689	I hear this over and over... amazing how peoples eyes get spoiled and how a superior clear image can look flat or milky. What you are noticing is not a lack of color it is the vast improvement in detail across all ranges. I have used the XL1, XL1s and XL2 since literally the day each came out. They all look different out of the box, the XL1s, like the DVX, has more poppy colors that are broadcast ILLEGAL and result in a loss in detail in dark and light areas. If you are after this look in your XL2, it can be achieved, just set the knew to high, the black to press, up the color saturation a couple notches and the master pedestal and setup level DOWN several notches. You may also want to turn down the sharpness... ash =o)

July 25th, 2005, 09:09 PM	#7
Bill Porter Major Player Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Ventura, California, USA Posts: 751	Ash (or whomever), What exactly are the ramifications of "broadcast illegal" colors? Your vid cannot and will not be aired on television, or, it's less likely, or, it will just look bad?

July 26th, 2005, 07:11 AM	#8
Mathieu Ghekiere Inner Circle Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Belgium Posts: 2,195	I think because he means they are maybe beautiful to look at in a filmic point of view, but they are not realistic. (Don't know sure, just a guess)

July 26th, 2005, 09:40 AM	#10
Richard Alvarez Inner Circle Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: San Mateo, CA Posts: 3,840	Alex, I've posted this before, but I just finished post production on a documentary I shot with an Xl1 and an Xl2. I can honestly say, that I found the images from the Xl2 to be both sharper, and more saturated 'out of the box' than the images from the xl1. And I agree with Charles, it sounds like you have some back focus issues with the 16x manual. I shoot with the same lens, and make a point to check it each time I get ready for a session.

July 27th, 2005, 08:07 AM	#11
Mathieu Ghekiere Inner Circle Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Belgium Posts: 2,195	Thanks for clearing that up, Patrick.

August 1st, 2005, 05:12 PM	#12
Ash Greyson Trustee Join Date: May 2003 Location: Tulsa, OK Posts: 1,689	The colors you see on your DV tape will not always translate. Shoot something red with an XL1s or DVX100, dump it to your NLE and output it to VHS. Then play it back on an analog TV... YIKES!!!!! This can be corrected in post but as I said, you will lose some clarity versus shooting it legal to begin with... ash =o)