Matching PD-150 and XL1 at DVinfo.net

Jaclyn Ranere · August 22nd, 2002, 01:37 PM

I doing a documentary shoot of a music festival where we'll be using 2 XL1's (XL1, not XL1s) and a PD150 and want to know if anyone's tried matching them before. Any suggestions?

The trickiest part of the shoot will be filming a lit concert stage continuously from daytime thru dusk, to night. Cameras will be scattered so it won't be possible to white balance together at dusk and then when it's dark.

Thanks.
Jaclyn

Jeff Donald · August 22nd, 2002, 04:40 PM

Hi Jaclyn,

As you point out it will be almost impossible to keep the cameras white balanced uniformly, so it will be imposible to match them. The XL1 does not have color adjustment (phase) like the XL1s does. I don't believe the Sony has that ability either. If you had a vector scope you could try custom white balances. However, as the day light changes and the stage lighting changes the cameras will drift.

Jeff

Ken Tanaka · August 22nd, 2002, 05:11 PM

As if you didn't have enough to worry about, matching picture sharpness will also be a problem. Like most of the Sony line, the PD-150 produces an extremely sharp image. (Too sharp for my taste, actually.) The XL1s features an adjustment that enables you to crank it's sharpness up to match the Sony. But I don't recall that the XL1 had this feature. Nor do I know if the PD-150 has an adjustment that might let you match the XL1.

Barry Goyette · August 22nd, 2002, 05:56 PM

As others have said, color balance matching may be a little out of the question, given your setup. However, the Pd150, and xl1 arent horribly far apart in color when white balanced properly, and you should be able to fix most discrepancies in post. Perhaps you can go out the day before and shoot some test footage on each camera to see if anything is severely out of whack that you might need to fix ahead of time. (I typically use the incandescent preset white balance under concert lighting, as it keeps the changing colors looking pretty natural...perhaps comparing the cameras incandescent presets as well, using normal household lighting would be a good idea).

If the xl1 does have sharpening adjustment, I've found that a +2 increase works pretty well on the xl1s to match the pd150.

Additionally, I can think of three reasons you may want to use the PD150 for wide shots, and use the xl1's for close-ups and hand held....the pd 150 has a higher native resolution thus will do better wide (the xl1 can look mushy in wide shots), also color matching will be less important as the pd150 would have a different overall view than the xl1's; and the xl1's are better handheld cameras due to their larger size.

Barry

Jeff Donald · August 23rd, 2002, 01:07 AM

The XL1 does not have a sharpening control. That feature was added to the XL1s, along with color control and 20 some other improvements.

Jeff

Jaclyn Ranere · August 23rd, 2002, 07:24 AM

Thanks for all of your comments. I didn't realize I was so doomed. :-)

I will do some tests with the incandescent settings before the shoot to test preset white balance on all cameras. That's also what I've normally used on the XL1 for other concert shoots.

Barry - your suggestion regarding camera placement is great, now I just need to convince the PD150 camera operator that shooting the wide shot is much more fun than standing on and around the stage.

Another thought I had RE white balance. If I can place (or have a PA hold) a whitecard/foamcore somewhere on the stage where the lighting will be consistent (and not colored), then each camera can periodically white balance to that.

Looks like I'll be fixing all this in post...

Dylan Couper · August 23rd, 2002, 09:23 AM

If you are really worried about it not matching, and you expect to spend hours and hours in post fixing it, AND you are getting paid to do it, why not rent an XL1 to replace the PD150 and save yourself all the time and trouble? Might be worth it.

Jaclyn Ranere · August 23rd, 2002, 11:44 AM

Unfortunately the budget (which is almost non-existent) allows for either a camera rental OR paying a camera operator. I opted to pay a camera operator.

Jeff Donald · August 23rd, 2002, 12:54 PM

I would worry so much about the white balance. MTV had some concert footage on today amd there was a remarkable difference between soom of the shoots. Why? The local color from the theatrical lighting is impossible to correct for 100% of the time. I would use the sharpness of the pd150 to my advantage. Not only the use it to help the wide, establishing shots, but use it for real tight close ups, for cut aways. People expect shots up close to be very sharp, so play up to their expectations. It'll also make your shooter happier.

Jeff

Ted Jan · August 23rd, 2002, 01:52 PM

hmmm...have you looked into warmcards.com

They provide a solution for white balancing cameras no matter what the lighting conditions are. I was online where Doug Graham mentioned it in his list of useful things to have. The complete set is $99.

Greg Vaughn · August 23rd, 2002, 02:57 PM

I've taped numerous outdoor theatre productions in which I ran into the exact same problems. I use an XL1S and found the shots in which I left the gain on automatic or zero while using spotlight mode consistently came out the best. I also set the white balance to outdoor until sunset, then wait for a break in the performance to switch it to indoor. In my opinion, outdoor theatre lighting is simply too dynamic to set manual white balance. Granted, these results are from and XL1S which has slightly better low-light capability than the XL1.

Give the spotlight mode a try and don't underestimate the automatic settings on the XL1.

Jaclyn Ranere · August 26th, 2002, 09:04 AM

The XL1 auto settings are great if you're only using an XL1...but I'm also using trying to match to the PD150. Yesterday we did a couple of tests with the PD150 and XL1 comparing manual white balance in tungsten and daylight and the same with the presets. I'll be looking at the results tonight.

About the warm cards, I'm confused: I'm not trying to change the color, just ensure that all cameras white balance to the same lighting conditions.

After reading everyone's suggestions, I've decided to stick to my original plan. Rotate camerapeople/cameras in different positions throughout the night and just white balance as best we can. Thank you all for your input.

4 days til the shoot!

On a similar note, I watched Jazz on a Summer's Day this weekend. I highly recommend it to anyone interested in cinematography/shooting concerts - it's absolutely gorgeous. I heard of it b/c Scorcese mentions it in the audio commentary of The Last Waltz.

Doug Quance · October 11th, 2002, 07:59 AM

daremo.... great idea on those warm cards!

I toured their site, and couldn't help but order a set. I always thought that the white balance could be fooled to improve a shot, but haven't seen a viable solution in action.

I'll be sure to post my comments after I've had a chance to use them!

Mike Butler · October 11th, 2002, 07:48 PM

One thing I tried when we had one less camera operator than cameras (2 guys, 3 cams) was to set the far camera (rear dead center location) on lockdown and have that operator leave it and grab the stage camera to do the closeups. This saved hiring a third man or pulling me out of the booth.

Andre De Clercq · October 12th, 2002, 03:49 PM

Perfect matching /calibrating video pictures is a difficult story ...It is allmost impossible to perfectly colormatch two camera's unless we talk about real studio broadcast camera's. Why?... Simply because not all elements are available to be adjusted. Splitscreen evaluations will convince everybody about this difficulty. I have personally been involved numerous times in color calibration and colormatching issues at the output side however, which is almost the same problem. White balancing and contrast matching are not the only players in this story. They will match the (monochrome)highlights. Lowlight matching ( setup tolerances) is mostly neglected, though very important. Grayscale tracking ( differential RGB gamma) is another still monochrome issue. On the color level, of course, saturation matching is a must, but also hue matching comes into play. This means basically that the chroma components (R-Y/B-Y) in component based systems need to be matched too. For NTSC encoded signals, in addition also the burst/chroma phases have to match (vectorscope) too. A last point, only for camera matching, is that they need to be intergenlocked when used in environements where incandescent lights together with (mains fed) discharge lighting is being used. This is to avoid slowly shifting white (un)balance.

August 22nd, 2002, 01:37 PM	#1
Jaclyn Ranere Tourist Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Boston, MA Posts: 4	Matching PD-150 and XL1 I doing a documentary shoot of a music festival where we'll be using 2 XL1's (XL1, not XL1s) and a PD150 and want to know if anyone's tried matching them before. Any suggestions? The trickiest part of the shoot will be filming a lit concert stage continuously from daytime thru dusk, to night. Cameras will be scattered so it won't be possible to white balance together at dusk and then when it's dark. Thanks. Jaclyn

August 22nd, 2002, 05:11 PM	#3
Ken Tanaka Retired DV Info Net Almunus Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Chicago, IL Posts: 6,943	As if you didn't have enough to worry about, matching picture sharpness will also be a problem. Like most of the Sony line, the PD-150 produces an extremely sharp image. (Too sharp for my taste, actually.) The XL1s features an adjustment that enables you to crank it's sharpness up to match the Sony. But I don't recall that the XL1 had this feature. Nor do I know if the PD-150 has an adjustment that might let you match the XL1. __________________ Lady X Films: A lady with a boring wardrobe...and a global mission. Hey, you don't have enough stuff! Buy with confidence from our sponsors. Hand-picked as the best in the business...Really! See some of my work one frame at a time: www.KenTanaka.com

August 23rd, 2002, 02:57 PM	#11
Greg Vaughn Regular Crew Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Kansas City Posts: 46	Spotlight Mode I've taped numerous outdoor theatre productions in which I ran into the exact same problems. I use an XL1S and found the shots in which I left the gain on automatic or zero while using spotlight mode consistently came out the best. I also set the white balance to outdoor until sunset, then wait for a break in the performance to switch it to indoor. In my opinion, outdoor theatre lighting is simply too dynamic to set manual white balance. Granted, these results are from and XL1S which has slightly better low-light capability than the XL1. Give the spotlight mode a try and don't underestimate the automatic settings on the XL1. __________________ Greg Vaughn Kansas City, Missouri

October 11th, 2002, 07:59 AM	#13
Doug Quance Regular Crew Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Atlanta, Georgia Posts: 138	Warm Cards daremo.... great idea on those warm cards! I toured their site, and couldn't help but order a set. I always thought that the white balance could be fooled to improve a shot, but haven't seen a viable solution in action. I'll be sure to post my comments after I've had a chance to use them! __________________ If you're not the lead dog... the scenery never changes

October 11th, 2002, 07:48 PM	#14
Mike Butler Machinist Mate Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Southern Connecticut Posts: 644	One thing I tried when we had one less camera operator than cameras (2 guys, 3 cams) was to set the far camera (rear dead center location) on lockdown and have that operator leave it and grab the stage camera to do the closeups. This saved hiring a third man or pulling me out of the booth. __________________ I ain't straight outta Compton, I'm straight out the trailer. Cuss like a sailor, drink like a Mc. My only words of wisdom are just, "Radio Edit."

August 22nd, 2002, 04:40 PM	#2
Jeff Donald Warden Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Clearwater, FL Posts: 8,287	Hi Jaclyn, As you point out it will be almost impossible to keep the cameras white balanced uniformly, so it will be imposible to match them. The XL1 does not have color adjustment (phase) like the XL1s does. I don't believe the Sony has that ability either. If you had a vector scope you could try custom white balances. However, as the day light changes and the stage lighting changes the cameras will drift. Jeff

August 22nd, 2002, 05:56 PM	#4
Barry Goyette Trustee Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: San Luis Obispo CA Posts: 1,195	As others have said, color balance matching may be a little out of the question, given your setup. However, the Pd150, and xl1 arent horribly far apart in color when white balanced properly, and you should be able to fix most discrepancies in post. Perhaps you can go out the day before and shoot some test footage on each camera to see if anything is severely out of whack that you might need to fix ahead of time. (I typically use the incandescent preset white balance under concert lighting, as it keeps the changing colors looking pretty natural...perhaps comparing the cameras incandescent presets as well, using normal household lighting would be a good idea). If the xl1 does have sharpening adjustment, I've found that a +2 increase works pretty well on the xl1s to match the pd150. Additionally, I can think of three reasons you may want to use the PD150 for wide shots, and use the xl1's for close-ups and hand held....the pd 150 has a higher native resolution thus will do better wide (the xl1 can look mushy in wide shots), also color matching will be less important as the pd150 would have a different overall view than the xl1's; and the xl1's are better handheld cameras due to their larger size. Barry

August 23rd, 2002, 01:07 AM	#5
Jeff Donald Warden Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Clearwater, FL Posts: 8,287	The XL1 does not have a sharpening control. That feature was added to the XL1s, along with color control and 20 some other improvements. Jeff

August 23rd, 2002, 07:24 AM	#6
Jaclyn Ranere Tourist Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Boston, MA Posts: 4	Thanks for all of your comments. I didn't realize I was so doomed. :-) I will do some tests with the incandescent settings before the shoot to test preset white balance on all cameras. That's also what I've normally used on the XL1 for other concert shoots. Barry - your suggestion regarding camera placement is great, now I just need to convince the PD150 camera operator that shooting the wide shot is much more fun than standing on and around the stage. Another thought I had RE white balance. If I can place (or have a PA hold) a whitecard/foamcore somewhere on the stage where the lighting will be consistent (and not colored), then each camera can periodically white balance to that. Looks like I'll be fixing all this in post...

August 23rd, 2002, 09:23 AM	#7
Dylan Couper Wrangler Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Vancouver, British Columbia Posts: 8,314	If you are really worried about it not matching, and you expect to spend hours and hours in post fixing it, AND you are getting paid to do it, why not rent an XL1 to replace the PD150 and save yourself all the time and trouble? Might be worth it.

August 23rd, 2002, 11:44 AM	#8
Jaclyn Ranere Tourist Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Boston, MA Posts: 4	Unfortunately the budget (which is almost non-existent) allows for either a camera rental OR paying a camera operator. I opted to pay a camera operator.

August 23rd, 2002, 12:54 PM	#9
Jeff Donald Warden Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Clearwater, FL Posts: 8,287	I would worry so much about the white balance. MTV had some concert footage on today amd there was a remarkable difference between soom of the shoots. Why? The local color from the theatrical lighting is impossible to correct for 100% of the time. I would use the sharpness of the pd150 to my advantage. Not only the use it to help the wide, establishing shots, but use it for real tight close ups, for cut aways. People expect shots up close to be very sharp, so play up to their expectations. It'll also make your shooter happier. Jeff

August 23rd, 2002, 01:52 PM	#10
Ted Jan Regular Crew Join Date: May 2002 Posts: 36	hmmm...have you looked into warmcards.com They provide a solution for white balancing cameras no matter what the lighting conditions are. I was online where Doug Graham mentioned it in his list of useful things to have. The complete set is $99.

August 26th, 2002, 09:04 AM	#12
Jaclyn Ranere Tourist Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Boston, MA Posts: 4	The XL1 auto settings are great if you're only using an XL1...but I'm also using trying to match to the PD150. Yesterday we did a couple of tests with the PD150 and XL1 comparing manual white balance in tungsten and daylight and the same with the presets. I'll be looking at the results tonight. About the warm cards, I'm confused: I'm not trying to change the color, just ensure that all cameras white balance to the same lighting conditions. After reading everyone's suggestions, I've decided to stick to my original plan. Rotate camerapeople/cameras in different positions throughout the night and just white balance as best we can. Thank you all for your input. 4 days til the shoot! On a similar note, I watched Jazz on a Summer's Day this weekend. I highly recommend it to anyone interested in cinematography/shooting concerts - it's absolutely gorgeous. I heard of it b/c Scorcese mentions it in the audio commentary of The Last Waltz.

October 12th, 2002, 03:49 PM	#15
Andre De Clercq Major Player Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Belgium Posts: 804	Perfect matching /calibrating video pictures is a difficult story ...It is allmost impossible to perfectly colormatch two camera's unless we talk about real studio broadcast camera's. Why?... Simply because not all elements are available to be adjusted. Splitscreen evaluations will convince everybody about this difficulty. I have personally been involved numerous times in color calibration and colormatching issues at the output side however, which is almost the same problem. White balancing and contrast matching are not the only players in this story. They will match the (monochrome)highlights. Lowlight matching ( setup tolerances) is mostly neglected, though very important. Grayscale tracking ( differential RGB gamma) is another still monochrome issue. On the color level, of course, saturation matching is a must, but also hue matching comes into play. This means basically that the chroma components (R-Y/B-Y) in component based systems need to be matched too. For NTSC encoded signals, in addition also the burst/chroma phases have to match (vectorscope) too. A last point, only for camera matching, is that they need to be intergenlocked when used in environements where incandescent lights together with (mains fed) discharge lighting is being used. This is to avoid slowly shifting white (un)balance.