Manual 16X lens vs. stock 16X lens?? at DVinfo.net

DaveWatson · August 17th, 2002, 11:28 PM

For the last few years I have shot on an XL1 with the stock 16X lens. Have any of you fellow camera ops used the manual 16X?
What are the advantages?
What are the disadvantages? I know I'll lose the image stabilizer but I shoot everything from a tripod, or try to anyway.

Thanks & good shooting!

Dave

Mike Avery · August 18th, 2002, 06:54 AM

Dave,

I highly recommend the 16x manual lens, especially for anyone experienced with professional broadcast lenses.

It feels much more like the lenses you're used to. The only problem I have is that the iris is still controlled by the thumbwheel on the camera body.

I just can't seem to get used to that.

I've never used one, but I understand the 14x manual has iris control on the lens itself.

mike avery

Paul Sedillo · August 18th, 2002, 07:26 AM

One thing that I would like to mention is the view finder. When I bought my 16x Manual Servo Lens, I went with the color viewfinder. This was a mistake. The Black and White Viewfinder (FU-1000) was the one I should have gone with. It allows for more precise focus control. Don't get me wrong, you can still do it with the color viewfinder or an external monitor. The black and white viewfinder just makes it a lot easier.

My recommendation is to call Mizel at ZGC and talk with him about it. You can reach him at 973-335-4460 9 to 5 p.m. Monday through Friday EST. Web address is: http://www.zgc.com

DaveWatson · August 18th, 2002, 09:23 AM

Thanks Paul, I'll call him in the morning.

Mike...Based on all the info gathered here, it seems the best set up would be to invest in an XL1s body, a B&W viewer on on the camera & a 16X manual lens.

Best,

DW

Josh Bass · August 19th, 2002, 03:09 AM

I know everyone says that you can't achieve accurate critical focus with the color LCD, but I swear by whatever gods you choose to believe in that with the manual lens, you can.

I've done it several times, relying on nothing else but the viewfinder for my focus, and when viewed on a TV or computer monitor, it looks just peachy.

Jeff Donald · August 19th, 2002, 06:44 AM

I think it's a matter of experience. I've been focusing cameras for well over 20 years. In my production and broadcast days the VF were all B&W, color was a luxury. When I purchased my first XL1 the color VF and size took a little getting used to. Now days I don't give focusing with the color VF a second thought. Would it be easier with the B&W VF? I don't know, but the color works just fine. Spend a little time with whatever VF you get and get to know it.

I use the older Canon 14x mauual focus and I think you may find the manual focus more to your liking. I find the image a little sharper and I use it for most of my interview type work. I still use the 16x AF lens. But mostly off tripod and when i feel the need for the IS. Have you tried the 3x AF? I use it a great deal for establishing shots and on my Glidecam (Steadicam). I would think it would be ideal on a small boat and in tight spaces.

Jeff

Don Berube · August 19th, 2002, 08:16 PM

I would have to agree with Jeff.

Overall, I would say that it has to do with what you are used to using. I too have shot for many years with B&W EVF's and yes, they are much sharper than the color EVF. This doesn't mean that I do not use the color EVF - I use it frequently when I want to see color composition but do not have an external monitor nearby. My brain just simply adapts and I am able to focus without any problem really. Yes, I would like to see a higher resolution color EVF for the XL1S - will we see one anytime soon??? Well, we haven't seen one yet, but who knows...

By the way, I always monitor whenever I can with an external SONY color field monitor when I am shooting with the XL1S, as I do when I am shooting in DVCam and BetaCam as well. It's just good procedure, alows you to get instant feedback regarding whitebalance, NTSC framing, etc.

One accessory which I have recently found and am very excited about is TIFFEN's "Tele-2X" Wide Angle Viewfinder adaptor
http://www.tiffen.com/tele2x.htm

I often use it when I am using the B&W viewfinder, it really gives you the feel of a flip-out LCD panel, or a camera-mounted "studio viewfinder". Add a second pan handle to your tripod, a Varizoom focus control for the 16X Manual/ Servo lens and a Varizoom zoom control and you really do have a sweet "studio setup".

Originally designed by Ira Tiffen for the shooters of the US Open Tour, there are versions for Sony and Ikegami pro viewfinders. Since the Canon B&W viewfinder is manufactured by Ikegami, the WAVFIKEGAMI model works perfectly. At the moment, there is no model available yet for the Canon color EVF - but there will be soon, am working with Tiffen to develop one and I will keep you posted at some point soon regarding its' availbility.

I will be bringing my "Tele-2X" with me to the WEVA Show in Vegas next week, in case anyone is at the show, look me up at the Canon booth and I will show it to you.

I will be providing Chris with a report on the Tiffen "Tele-2X" shortly.

- don

Pierre Vetsch · August 20th, 2002, 01:12 AM

Hello Don,

Thank you for your very interesting comment, can you let us know when your report on this accesory will be available ? I would be interested to know if you can use the Tiffen 2x wide angle on the both ways far-head and also close-up. I mean you can leave it permanently on your B&W viewfinder ?

Thank in advance for your answer.
Pierre

Josh Bass · August 20th, 2002, 01:36 AM

Two things: what exactly does this Tiffen dealy do? It magnifies the viewfinder?

Also, just out of curiosity, why is the color EVF overscanned/underscanned/call it what you will instead of like a b&w EVF, with the framing marks denoting action and title safe areas, and showing the entire area that the lens will record? Was it more technologically plausible to build this way?

Don Berube · August 20th, 2002, 01:56 AM

Pieere and Josh,

The Tele-2X is meant to be used when you want to stand back from your camera a couple of feet as you would do if you were using a "studio configuration". A handy accessory to keep in your bag, especially with the B&W EVF as that viewfinder shows extra detail becuase it is a CRT - especially in those situations where you can not always carry an external monitor with you. You can actually stand back from the camera a bit and still see the EVF image well enough to make critical focusing adjustments - pretty cool.

You can always leave it on your B&W EVF, yes, however you would want to keep the standard eyepiece extension tube from the B&W EVF nearby, in case you would need to look into the EVF as you would normally do, with your eye pressed against the eyecup. The TELE-2x, by it's own design, works pretty well outdoors too. I am hoping that KATA will be able to offer a case for the TELE-2x, which will double as an additional sunhood when outdoors in very bright sunlit conditions. The guys at KATA are ingenious as far as design goes and this would be an extremely useful accessory for the TELE-2x to keep it in showroom condition.

Josh, remember that the color EVF is based on an LCD, while the B&W EVF is based on an actual CRT. That is why it shows the image as it would be seen on a larger CRT. I suppose the color EVF has limitations due to the price point it was intended for - I have yet to see any color LCD EVF perform any different than the one on the XL1(S) in this regard.

Let's hope that Canon keeps these user comments in mind with future EVFs - they are usually very attentive to their customer base as far as designing future products.

- don

Don Berube · August 20th, 2002, 01:57 AM

Pierre, please pardon my typo errors as it has been an extremely long day out in the field!

- don
noisybrain.com

Josh Bass · August 20th, 2002, 03:11 AM

That's just it though--I have a varizoom external LCD monitor, that DOES show the entire image, not just the overscanned portion. . .maybe it is a price thing though.

In addition, it seems that having this monitor defeats the purpose of the 2x dealy, no?

Pierre Vetsch · August 20th, 2002, 03:40 AM

Thank to take time to answer quickly, that is exactly what I wanted to know.
Best regards
Pierre

DaveWatson · August 20th, 2002, 07:31 AM

Thanks everyone & again, this board is an excellent way to gather info from the best source, and that's people who have USED the gear.

I have placed a request to ZITO on a price quote for an XL1S body, the 16X manual lens & the b&w view finder. I also thanked them for their support of this website.

It's important for all of us to support the sponsors who support this site, even if it means paying 10 or 20 bucks more.

Good shooting,

Dave

Paul Sedillo · August 20th, 2002, 07:27 PM

<<<-- Originally posted by DaveWatson : Thanks everyone & again, this board is an excellent way to gather info from the best source, and that's people who have USED the gear.

I have placed a request to ZITO on a price quote for an XL1S body, the 16X manual lens & the b&w view finder. I also thanked them for their support of this website.

It's important for all of us to support the sponsors who support this site, even if it means paying 10 or 20 bucks more.

Good shooting,

Dave -->>>

Dave,

If you have not done it already, give Mizel a call at ZGC. He is a great guy with a ton of knowledge.

August 17th, 2002, 11:28 PM	#1
DaveWatson New Boot Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Nashville, TN Posts: 10	Manual 16X lens vs. stock 16X lens?? For the last few years I have shot on an XL1 with the stock 16X lens. Have any of you fellow camera ops used the manual 16X? What are the advantages? What are the disadvantages? I know I'll lose the image stabilizer but I shoot everything from a tripod, or try to anyway. Thanks & good shooting! Dave

August 18th, 2002, 07:26 AM	#3
Paul Sedillo Major Player Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Houston, TX Posts: 607	One thing that I would like to mention is the view finder. When I bought my 16x Manual Servo Lens, I went with the color viewfinder. This was a mistake. The Black and White Viewfinder (FU-1000) was the one I should have gone with. It allows for more precise focus control. Don't get me wrong, you can still do it with the color viewfinder or an external monitor. The black and white viewfinder just makes it a lot easier. My recommendation is to call Mizel at ZGC and talk with him about it. You can reach him at 973-335-4460 9 to 5 p.m. Monday through Friday EST. Web address is: http://www.zgc.com __________________ Paul Sedillo Image::Studio http://www.image-studio.com Houston, Texas

August 19th, 2002, 03:09 AM	#5
Josh Bass Slash Rules! Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Houston, Texas Posts: 5,472	I know everyone says that you can't achieve accurate critical focus with the color LCD, but I swear by whatever gods you choose to believe in that with the manual lens, you can. I've done it several times, relying on nothing else but the viewfinder for my focus, and when viewed on a TV or computer monitor, it looks just peachy. __________________ The Bass' camerawork The Bass on IMDB

August 19th, 2002, 08:16 PM	#7
Don Berube Moderator Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Boston, MA (travel frequently) Posts: 837	B&W vs. COlor EVF - Tiffen "Tele-2X" Wide EVF adaptor I would have to agree with Jeff. Overall, I would say that it has to do with what you are used to using. I too have shot for many years with B&W EVF's and yes, they are much sharper than the color EVF. This doesn't mean that I do not use the color EVF - I use it frequently when I want to see color composition but do not have an external monitor nearby. My brain just simply adapts and I am able to focus without any problem really. Yes, I would like to see a higher resolution color EVF for the XL1S - will we see one anytime soon??? Well, we haven't seen one yet, but who knows... By the way, I always monitor whenever I can with an external SONY color field monitor when I am shooting with the XL1S, as I do when I am shooting in DVCam and BetaCam as well. It's just good procedure, alows you to get instant feedback regarding whitebalance, NTSC framing, etc. One accessory which I have recently found and am very excited about is TIFFEN's "Tele-2X" Wide Angle Viewfinder adaptor http://www.tiffen.com/tele2x.htm I often use it when I am using the B&W viewfinder, it really gives you the feel of a flip-out LCD panel, or a camera-mounted "studio viewfinder". Add a second pan handle to your tripod, a Varizoom focus control for the 16X Manual/ Servo lens and a Varizoom zoom control and you really do have a sweet "studio setup". Originally designed by Ira Tiffen for the shooters of the US Open Tour, there are versions for Sony and Ikegami pro viewfinders. Since the Canon B&W viewfinder is manufactured by Ikegami, the WAVFIKEGAMI model works perfectly. At the moment, there is no model available yet for the Canon color EVF - but there will be soon, am working with Tiffen to develop one and I will keep you posted at some point soon regarding its' availbility. I will be bringing my "Tele-2X" with me to the WEVA Show in Vegas next week, in case anyone is at the show, look me up at the Canon booth and I will show it to you. I will be providing Chris with a report on the Tiffen "Tele-2X" shortly. - don __________________ DONALD BERUBE - noisybrain. Productions, LLC Director Of Photography/ Producer/ Consultant http://noisybrain.com/donbio.html CREATE and NETWORK with http://www.bosfcpug.org and also http://fcpugnetwork.org

August 20th, 2002, 01:36 AM	#9
Josh Bass Slash Rules! Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Houston, Texas Posts: 5,472	Two things: what exactly does this Tiffen dealy do? It magnifies the viewfinder? Also, just out of curiosity, why is the color EVF overscanned/underscanned/call it what you will instead of like a b&w EVF, with the framing marks denoting action and title safe areas, and showing the entire area that the lens will record? Was it more technologically plausible to build this way? __________________ The Bass' camerawork The Bass on IMDB

August 18th, 2002, 06:54 AM	#2
Mike Avery Regular Crew Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Michigan Posts: 87	Dave, I highly recommend the 16x manual lens, especially for anyone experienced with professional broadcast lenses. It feels much more like the lenses you're used to. The only problem I have is that the iris is still controlled by the thumbwheel on the camera body. I just can't seem to get used to that. I've never used one, but I understand the 14x manual has iris control on the lens itself. mike avery

August 18th, 2002, 09:23 AM	#4
DaveWatson New Boot Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Nashville, TN Posts: 10	Thanks Paul, I'll call him in the morning. Mike...Based on all the info gathered here, it seems the best set up would be to invest in an XL1s body, a B&W viewer on on the camera & a 16X manual lens. Best, DW

August 19th, 2002, 06:44 AM	#6
Jeff Donald Warden Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Clearwater, FL Posts: 8,287	I think it's a matter of experience. I've been focusing cameras for well over 20 years. In my production and broadcast days the VF were all B&W, color was a luxury. When I purchased my first XL1 the color VF and size took a little getting used to. Now days I don't give focusing with the color VF a second thought. Would it be easier with the B&W VF? I don't know, but the color works just fine. Spend a little time with whatever VF you get and get to know it. I use the older Canon 14x mauual focus and I think you may find the manual focus more to your liking. I find the image a little sharper and I use it for most of my interview type work. I still use the 16x AF lens. But mostly off tripod and when i feel the need for the IS. Have you tried the 3x AF? I use it a great deal for establishing shots and on my Glidecam (Steadicam). I would think it would be ideal on a small boat and in tight spaces. Jeff

August 20th, 2002, 01:12 AM	#8
Pierre Vetsch New Boot Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Geneva, Switzerland Posts: 23	Hello Don, Thank you for your very interesting comment, can you let us know when your report on this accesory will be available ? I would be interested to know if you can use the Tiffen 2x wide angle on the both ways far-head and also close-up. I mean you can leave it permanently on your B&W viewfinder ? Thank in advance for your answer. Pierre

August 20th, 2002, 01:56 AM	#10
Don Berube Moderator Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Boston, MA (travel frequently) Posts: 837	Pieere and Josh, The Tele-2X is meant to be used when you want to stand back from your camera a couple of feet as you would do if you were using a "studio configuration". A handy accessory to keep in your bag, especially with the B&W EVF as that viewfinder shows extra detail becuase it is a CRT - especially in those situations where you can not always carry an external monitor with you. You can actually stand back from the camera a bit and still see the EVF image well enough to make critical focusing adjustments - pretty cool. You can always leave it on your B&W EVF, yes, however you would want to keep the standard eyepiece extension tube from the B&W EVF nearby, in case you would need to look into the EVF as you would normally do, with your eye pressed against the eyecup. The TELE-2x, by it's own design, works pretty well outdoors too. I am hoping that KATA will be able to offer a case for the TELE-2x, which will double as an additional sunhood when outdoors in very bright sunlit conditions. The guys at KATA are ingenious as far as design goes and this would be an extremely useful accessory for the TELE-2x to keep it in showroom condition. Josh, remember that the color EVF is based on an LCD, while the B&W EVF is based on an actual CRT. That is why it shows the image as it would be seen on a larger CRT. I suppose the color EVF has limitations due to the price point it was intended for - I have yet to see any color LCD EVF perform any different than the one on the XL1(S) in this regard. Let's hope that Canon keeps these user comments in mind with future EVFs - they are usually very attentive to their customer base as far as designing future products. - don __________________ DONALD BERUBE - noisybrain. Productions, LLC Director Of Photography/ Producer/ Consultant http://noisybrain.com/donbio.html CREATE and NETWORK with http://www.bosfcpug.org and also http://fcpugnetwork.org

August 20th, 2002, 01:57 AM	#11
Don Berube Moderator Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Boston, MA (travel frequently) Posts: 837	typos! Pierre, please pardon my typo errors as it has been an extremely long day out in the field! - don noisybrain.com

August 20th, 2002, 03:11 AM	#12
Josh Bass Slash Rules! Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Houston, Texas Posts: 5,472	That's just it though--I have a varizoom external LCD monitor, that DOES show the entire image, not just the overscanned portion. . .maybe it is a price thing though. In addition, it seems that having this monitor defeats the purpose of the 2x dealy, no? __________________ The Bass' camerawork The Bass on IMDB

August 20th, 2002, 03:40 AM	#13
Pierre Vetsch New Boot Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Geneva, Switzerland Posts: 23	Thank to take time to answer quickly, that is exactly what I wanted to know. Best regards Pierre

August 20th, 2002, 07:31 AM	#14
DaveWatson New Boot Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Nashville, TN Posts: 10	Buying new gear Thanks everyone & again, this board is an excellent way to gather info from the best source, and that's people who have USED the gear. I have placed a request to ZITO on a price quote for an XL1S body, the 16X manual lens & the b&w view finder. I also thanked them for their support of this website. It's important for all of us to support the sponsors who support this site, even if it means paying 10 or 20 bucks more. Good shooting, Dave

August 20th, 2002, 07:27 PM	#15
Paul Sedillo Major Player Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Houston, TX Posts: 607	Re: Buying new gear <<<-- Originally posted by DaveWatson : Thanks everyone & again, this board is an excellent way to gather info from the best source, and that's people who have USED the gear. I have placed a request to ZITO on a price quote for an XL1S body, the 16X manual lens & the b&w view finder. I also thanked them for their support of this website. It's important for all of us to support the sponsors who support this site, even if it means paying 10 or 20 bucks more. Good shooting, Dave -->>> Dave, If you have not done it already, give Mizel a call at ZGC. He is a great guy with a ton of knowledge. __________________ Paul Sedillo Image::Studio http://www.image-studio.com Houston, Texas