Xl1 and Premiere: Recording at 29.95 at DVinfo.net

Robin Greenidge · October 30th, 2001, 03:15 PM

Everything I record with the Xl1 reads a 29.95 or 29.96 fps when I drop it into Premiere 6.0. I sent the camera back three times to Canon, they said it's fine. I spent some time with the Premiere Tech Support and they said it is a known problem with the Xl1's. So I am stuck in the middle. The problem is only apparent if you capture more than 8 mins of video, then you will see the audio and video drift apart. Any ideas?

October 30th, 2001, 04:47 PM

In this statement you wrote, "I spent some time with the Premiere Tech Support and they said it is a known problem with the Xl1's."

Is the tech support blaming Canon's XL-1 for this problem or are they saying it's a shortcoming of the Premiere Program? Or is it some kind of compatibility problem between just these two, which otherwise would be fine with any other cameras/programs?

I happen to have recently purchased an XL-1 and was about to get Premiere 6. Could you be more specific?

Don Palomaki · October 30th, 2001, 06:50 PM

The issue may actually be that the XL1 audio clock is ever so slightly off 48000 (something like 48005 I've read) and this can cause some drift between video and audio in long segments when played on a different system with a differnt audio clock rate. Some NLE systems have a parameter that can be set to compensate for this.

Do you have anything more on this Chris?

Robin Greenidge · October 31st, 2001, 08:31 AM

Here is some more detail on this issue:

To test if you have this problem simly capture a short clip a few seconds is all you need, then check the properties of that clip. If it says 29.97 in the Video Track properties then all is well, if there is some other number there then you might have the same problem I do.
I have received tapes from outside shooters using other DV cameras and they all read 29.97 when captured into Premiere. I even rented another XL1 but the same thing is happening... 29.95 frame rates.
Canon said that they tested my camera using IMovie and found it to read 29.97, Ulead Media Studio 6 and Final Cut Pro were used for tests.

After a few conacts with Tech Support at Premiere I finally ended up at the top level of their support and we tried a few things to lick this problem, among them was to export the audio after bringing it into Premiere and re-importing after changing the Interleave option in the audio settings...didn't work. Another thing that we did was their "Force DVNTSC" option which makes all non-NTSC(29.97) frame rates to be "forced" to the rate...didn't work. At this point I think I have stumped them and they are suggesting using a capture card ( Canopus) which uses its own set of drivers and codecs to hopefully get around this issue. It is not considered a fix but I guess they don't know what else to tell me!
Meanwhile my current solution is to capture everything in 7 min segments and cut it together on the Timeline, which does add a bit of time to my projects.

Help!

Alexander Ibrahim · October 31st, 2001, 10:23 AM

I have an XL-1 and I have used it with a variety of different systems. I assure you it is not an XL-1 problem.

This is Premiere's fault. If you use Premiere to drive a 1394 port for video it is exhibited exactly as you describe. It works the other way too, but the XL-1 is smarter about making the incoming DV video conform to DV standard.

I never experienced this, with the very same XL-1 on the very same machine, when using Studio DV or testing Mainconcept, Ulead, or Fast products.

If you are using a capture card the problem goes away completely if you use a capture card. I use an RT2000 in my studio and it is flawless. I have used the Canopus DV Storm, it is flawless. I tested the Pinnacle DV200, it was flawless....

BTW, this problem is exhibited on just about any camera that is not a VX2000 or VX1000. I understand that Adobe uses those two cameras to test Premiere in house. Now oddly most DV product manufacturers test with an XL-1 because it is a well know conforming camera. A defacto standard if you will. Many manufacturers also test with a large number of DV devices...but Adobe...UGH.

BTW, my understanding is that the problem is worse over in Mac Land. Part of the reason is that Mac OS 9 can't preemptively multitask...so sometimes it interrupts the captures with other housekeeping stuff. That is why I am holding on to the PC and Windows. I won't move to Macintosh until everything I want/need is available under OS X.

Takeshi Fukushima · October 31st, 2001, 10:30 AM

Doesn't the frame-rate drop have to do with something with the Capture card, rather than the software?

What capture card/edit software do everybody use here anyhow? and what's the premium choice? It would be nice to have some kinda database like this. Would help us poor newbees save some precious time and money!

I have a XL1s, and was thinking of buying the Raptor from Canopus, but I'd like to know it DOES work.
Thanks!
Takeshi

(a model just sold in Japan,,, it doesn't have RT capabilities as the Raptor RT)

Robin Greenidge · October 31st, 2001, 12:50 PM

Unless I am missing what's being said, the solution to this problem seems to lie in using a capture card (Rt2000, DV200,etc) and NOT using a plain 'ol 1394 card like Premiere boasts that we are able to do.
I had this problem with Premiere 5.1 also and I gave the tapes to an associate who also edited with Premiere but he used a DV500 capture card and he had the same problem there, the audio drifted after about 8 mins. At the time I was using a MotoDV Studio card which limited my capture time to 8mins(or was it Win98?)so lengthy captures were not in the picture, but there was some drift noticeable.
I am very hesitant to put out the cash for a capture board because I do not know if I would still see the problem, but if this has been a non-issue for you (aibrahim) then maybe that is the route I will take.
Any recommendations on a capture board?
(It annoys me that Premiere touts direct capture through a 1394 card and that seems to be where my trouble lies)

Alexander Ibrahim · October 31st, 2001, 01:30 PM

I can recommend from personal experience the Canopus Raptor. DV Storm.

I own a Matrox RT2000. You an get a Matrox RT2500 as well since you probably already have a video card.

I don't know if you are more price conscious or if you want capability.

If price is your concern get the Canopus Raptor AP (the one that comes with Premiere)

If capability is your concern get the DV Storm. Just know that DV Storm relies on you having a solid high power system to use it on.

If you need everything in hardware then get the RT2500 or RT2000. (They are the same. Difference is software package and that RT2000 comes with a Video card that you must use.)

About DV500...I heard about problems it had with audio synch issues and various cameras. The problems seem to have subsided with the appearance of Premiere 6.

Premiere 6, while not quite living up to its direct handling of DV on all occasions, has made it easier for the capture card manufacturers to do their jobs well. Definitely worth it.

A final option...go Macintosh. I recommend Matrox RTMac. This bundles Final Cut and is very nice all around, but lacks many of the 3D features you find on RT2000/2500.

If you are interested in a RT2000 boardset let me know. I am looking to upgrade to either DV Storm or Video Toaster NT and may be willing to part with mine for ~$800 US. Email if interested.

Don Palomaki · October 31st, 2001, 05:37 PM

FWIW: Both GL1 and XL1 clips show as 29.97 on my system with premiere 6.01. Capture card is DV.now AV. Captrure was using Dazzle/FAST's FASTForward set for Canon source.

Adrian Douglas · October 31st, 2001, 06:38 PM

Takeshi, I use a DV500 with my XL1 and it works fine. It took some sorting out initally but I'm pretty happy with it now. If your interested in having a look at it I live in Chigasaki and you can contact me through my website. Use the English speakers phone number as your English seems very good and you can speak to me directly.

October 31st, 2001, 06:48 PM

Just imported some footage from my xl1s into my g4 using premiere 6.0 and the frame rate is fine. Let me know if you want me to check anything for you. I think the suggestion about the 1394 card might be a viable one. It might be worth your time to investigate it.

Robin Greenidge · November 1st, 2001, 07:48 AM

Is anyone using a 1394 plain 'ol generic Firewire card to capture video into Premiere? This is what I have been doing and it sounds like it is the source of my trouble. You all seem to using capture cards that are branded (Canopus, RT2000, DV Storm, etc).

Brad_DeWees · November 1st, 2001, 05:19 PM

I'm using an ADS Pyro firewire card, capturing into Premier 6 from a GL-1. Once I get home, I'll check the frame rate. I haven't noticed any drifting of audio though...

November 1st, 2001, 06:52 PM

This response is for Alexander Ibrahim.

Alexander, I read your response to this thread. Although I know you love your XL-1 (I mean who wouldn't!), this is an XL-1 problem. Now aside from the fact that Apple's Final Cut Pro has the "Auto sync function" to deal with the fact that some Canon cameras are slightly off spec with their audio sample rate, I have a test to prove the problem is with the camera and not Premiere or Final Cut Pro.
1. Capture video on the XL-1 and then use a different DV device to playback the tape for capture in Premiere ( a JVC or Sony or even a Canon camera like the ZR10). The file is captured by Premiere at 29.9x fps.
2. Now record some video on the JVC or Sony or the Canon ZR10. Capture that footage into Premiere. The file is captured at 29.97. You can even use the XL-1 to playback the video recorded on these other cameras and Premiere will capture the video at 29.97
As you can see, the problem is recorded on to the tape by the camera. This problem is very specific to a few Canon camera that were made within spefic time periods. This can also happen with GL-1's, Optura's, and Elura's however it most often happens on XL-1's. Here are some links to Final Cut Pro's site where this very subject is discussed.

http://www.2-pop.com/2pop-old/faq.html#Anchor18
http://www.2-pop.com/2pop-old/subclips.html#Anchor17
http://www.2-pop.com/2pop-old/subclips.html#Anchor15

Don't be so negative. Sometimes tech support does know what they're talking about.

November 1st, 2001, 09:30 PM

I can add that there is no problem using the XL1 and Premiere 6 with me. I have a Canopus DVRex RT system.. I highly endorse Canopus if you go in that direction. Email me for any specifics.

October 30th, 2001, 03:15 PM	#1
Robin Greenidge New Boot Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Holtsville, NY ,USA Posts: 20	Xl1 and Premiere: Recording at 29.95 Everything I record with the Xl1 reads a 29.95 or 29.96 fps when I drop it into Premiere 6.0. I sent the camera back three times to Canon, they said it's fine. I spent some time with the Premiere Tech Support and they said it is a known problem with the Xl1's. So I am stuck in the middle. The problem is only apparent if you capture more than 8 mins of video, then you will see the audio and video drift apart. Any ideas?

October 30th, 2001, 04:47 PM	#2
infinity Atlast Posts: n/a	Who is the Tech Support blaming for this? In this statement you wrote, "I spent some time with the Premiere Tech Support and they said it is a known problem with the Xl1's." Is the tech support blaming Canon's XL-1 for this problem or are they saying it's a shortcoming of the Premiere Program? Or is it some kind of compatibility problem between just these two, which otherwise would be fine with any other cameras/programs? I happen to have recently purchased an XL-1 and was about to get Premiere 6. Could you be more specific?

October 31st, 2001, 08:31 AM	#4
Robin Greenidge New Boot Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Holtsville, NY ,USA Posts: 20	More Info on the XL1/Premiere Issue Here is some more detail on this issue: To test if you have this problem simly capture a short clip a few seconds is all you need, then check the properties of that clip. If it says 29.97 in the Video Track properties then all is well, if there is some other number there then you might have the same problem I do. I have received tapes from outside shooters using other DV cameras and they all read 29.97 when captured into Premiere. I even rented another XL1 but the same thing is happening... 29.95 frame rates. Canon said that they tested my camera using IMovie and found it to read 29.97, Ulead Media Studio 6 and Final Cut Pro were used for tests. After a few conacts with Tech Support at Premiere I finally ended up at the top level of their support and we tried a few things to lick this problem, among them was to export the audio after bringing it into Premiere and re-importing after changing the Interleave option in the audio settings...didn't work. Another thing that we did was their "Force DVNTSC" option which makes all non-NTSC(29.97) frame rates to be "forced" to the rate...didn't work. At this point I think I have stumped them and they are suggesting using a capture card ( Canopus) which uses its own set of drivers and codecs to hopefully get around this issue. It is not considered a fix but I guess they don't know what else to tell me! Meanwhile my current solution is to capture everything in 7 min segments and cut it together on the Timeline, which does add a bit of time to my projects. Help!

October 31st, 2001, 10:23 AM	#5
Alexander Ibrahim Major Player Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Washington D.C. Metro Area Posts: 384	*This is a Premiere* problem** I have an XL-1 and I have used it with a variety of different systems. I assure you it is not an XL-1 problem. This is Premiere's fault. If you use Premiere to drive a 1394 port for video it is exhibited exactly as you describe. It works the other way too, but the XL-1 is smarter about making the incoming DV video conform to DV standard. I never experienced this, with the very same XL-1 on the very same machine, when using Studio DV or testing Mainconcept, Ulead, or Fast products. If you are using a capture card the problem goes away completely if you use a capture card. I use an RT2000 in my studio and it is flawless. I have used the Canopus DV Storm, it is flawless. I tested the Pinnacle DV200, it was flawless.... BTW, this problem is exhibited on just about any camera that is not a VX2000 or VX1000. I understand that Adobe uses those two cameras to test Premiere in house. Now oddly most DV product manufacturers test with an XL-1 because it is a well know conforming camera. A defacto standard if you will. Many manufacturers also test with a large number of DV devices...but Adobe...UGH. BTW, my understanding is that the problem is worse over in Mac Land. Part of the reason is that Mac OS 9 can't preemptively multitask...so sometimes it interrupts the captures with other housekeeping stuff. That is why I am holding on to the PC and Windows. I won't move to Macintosh until everything I want/need is available under OS X. __________________ Alexander Ibrahim http://www.alexanderibrahim.net

October 31st, 2001, 10:30 AM	#6
Takeshi Fukushima Regular Crew Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Tokyo, Japan Posts: 86	so what's the best capture card/edit software? Doesn't the frame-rate drop have to do with something with the Capture card, rather than the software? What capture card/edit software do everybody use here anyhow? and what's the premium choice? It would be nice to have some kinda database like this. Would help us poor newbees save some precious time and money! I have a XL1s, and was thinking of buying the Raptor from Canopus, but I'd like to know it DOES work. Thanks! Takeshi (a model just sold in Japan,,, it doesn't have RT capabilities as the Raptor RT)

October 30th, 2001, 06:50 PM	#3
Don Palomaki Wrangler Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: Northern VA Posts: 4,489	The issue may actually be that the XL1 audio clock is ever so slightly off 48000 (something like 48005 I've read) and this can cause some drift between video and audio in long segments when played on a different system with a differnt audio clock rate. Some NLE systems have a parameter that can be set to compensate for this. Do you have anything more on this Chris?

October 31st, 2001, 12:50 PM	#7
Robin Greenidge New Boot Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Holtsville, NY ,USA Posts: 20	Re:Premiere at fault Unless I am missing what's being said, the solution to this problem seems to lie in using a capture card (Rt2000, DV200,etc) and NOT using a plain 'ol 1394 card like Premiere boasts that we are able to do. I had this problem with Premiere 5.1 also and I gave the tapes to an associate who also edited with Premiere but he used a DV500 capture card and he had the same problem there, the audio drifted after about 8 mins. At the time I was using a MotoDV Studio card which limited my capture time to 8mins(or was it Win98?)so lengthy captures were not in the picture, but there was some drift noticeable. I am very hesitant to put out the cash for a capture board because I do not know if I would still see the problem, but if this has been a non-issue for you (aibrahim) then maybe that is the route I will take. Any recommendations on a capture board? (It annoys me that Premiere touts direct capture through a 1394 card and that seems to be where my trouble lies)

October 31st, 2001, 01:30 PM	#8
Alexander Ibrahim Major Player Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Washington D.C. Metro Area Posts: 384	Canopus and Matrox I can recommend from personal experience the Canopus Raptor. DV Storm. I own a Matrox RT2000. You an get a Matrox RT2500 as well since you probably already have a video card. I don't know if you are more price conscious or if you want capability. If price is your concern get the Canopus Raptor AP (the one that comes with Premiere) If capability is your concern get the DV Storm. Just know that DV Storm relies on you having a solid high power system to use it on. If you need everything in hardware then get the RT2500 or RT2000. (They are the same. Difference is software package and that RT2000 comes with a Video card that you must use.) About DV500...I heard about problems it had with audio synch issues and various cameras. The problems seem to have subsided with the appearance of Premiere 6. Premiere 6, while not quite living up to its direct handling of DV on all occasions, has made it easier for the capture card manufacturers to do their jobs well. Definitely worth it. A final option...go Macintosh. I recommend Matrox RTMac. This bundles Final Cut and is very nice all around, but lacks many of the 3D features you find on RT2000/2500. If you are interested in a RT2000 boardset let me know. I am looking to upgrade to either DV Storm or Video Toaster NT and may be willing to part with mine for ~$800 US. Email if interested. __________________ Alexander Ibrahim http://www.alexanderibrahim.net

October 31st, 2001, 05:37 PM	#9
Don Palomaki Wrangler Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: Northern VA Posts: 4,489	FWIW: Both GL1 and XL1 clips show as 29.97 on my system with premiere 6.01. Capture card is DV.now AV. Captrure was using Dazzle/FAST's FASTForward set for Canon source.

October 31st, 2001, 06:38 PM	#10
Adrian Douglas Trustee Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Chigasaki, Japan. Posts: 1,660	Takeshi, I use a DV500 with my XL1 and it works fine. It took some sorting out initally but I'm pretty happy with it now. If your interested in having a look at it I live in Chigasaki and you can contact me through my website. Use the English speakers phone number as your English seems very good and you can speak to me directly. __________________ Adrian DVInfo.net Search for quick answers Where to buy? From the best in the business...DVInfo.net sponsors

October 31st, 2001, 06:48 PM	#11
aonikoyi Posts: n/a	Premiere 6.0/DP G4/xl1-s Just imported some footage from my xl1s into my g4 using premiere 6.0 and the frame rate is fine. Let me know if you want me to check anything for you. I think the suggestion about the 1394 card might be a viable one. It might be worth your time to investigate it.

November 1st, 2001, 07:48 AM	#12
Robin Greenidge New Boot Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Holtsville, NY ,USA Posts: 20	Premiere Capturing Issue-1394 card, anyone using one? Is anyone using a 1394 plain 'ol generic Firewire card to capture video into Premiere? This is what I have been doing and it sounds like it is the source of my trouble. You all seem to using capture cards that are branded (Canopus, RT2000, DV Storm, etc).

November 1st, 2001, 05:19 PM	#13
Brad_DeWees New Boot Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: Minneapolis, MN Posts: 17	I'm using an ADS Pyro firewire card, capturing into Premier 6 from a GL-1. Once I get home, I'll check the frame rate. I haven't noticed any drifting of audio though...

November 1st, 2001, 06:52 PM	#14
Jack Mitchell Posts: n/a	*This is a Premiere* problem** This response is for Alexander Ibrahim. Alexander, I read your response to this thread. Although I know you love your XL-1 (I mean who wouldn't!), this is an XL-1 problem. Now aside from the fact that Apple's Final Cut Pro has the "Auto sync function" to deal with the fact that some Canon cameras are slightly off spec with their audio sample rate, I have a test to prove the problem is with the camera and not Premiere or Final Cut Pro. 1. Capture video on the XL-1 and then use a different DV device to playback the tape for capture in Premiere ( a JVC or Sony or even a Canon camera like the ZR10). The file is captured by Premiere at 29.9x fps. 2. Now record some video on the JVC or Sony or the Canon ZR10. Capture that footage into Premiere. The file is captured at 29.97. You can even use the XL-1 to playback the video recorded on these other cameras and Premiere will capture the video at 29.97 As you can see, the problem is recorded on to the tape by the camera. This problem is very specific to a few Canon camera that were made within spefic time periods. This can also happen with GL-1's, Optura's, and Elura's however it most often happens on XL-1's. Here are some links to Final Cut Pro's site where this very subject is discussed. http://www.2-pop.com/2pop-old/faq.html#Anchor18 http://www.2-pop.com/2pop-old/subclips.html#Anchor17 http://www.2-pop.com/2pop-old/subclips.html#Anchor15 Don't be so negative. Sometimes tech support does know what they're talking about.

November 1st, 2001, 09:30 PM	#15
pjssssss Posts: n/a	I can add that there is no problem using the XL1 and Premiere 6 with me. I have a Canopus DVRex RT system.. I highly endorse Canopus if you go in that direction. Email me for any specifics.